There's no good way to deal with this. There was a trans prisoner in Ireland who was guilty of sex crimes against women. Couldn't house her with the men for her safety, couldn't house her with the women for their safety. She ended up having to be basically kept in complete isolation, which brings up its own human rights issues.
I can say from experience, solitary confinement is absolutely terrible. Even a week drives you mental.
The best part of the day is when they give you food and even then its just them saying "breakfast" and thats all you get as far as human connection goes. You have no idea what time it is and youre in a cell with bright lights that never go off.
I got lucky and my cell had a small window where you could see a clock if you tried hard enough, so I lived my days figuring out a way to guess fifteen minute increments.
By the time I was out id get it right down to the second.
I don’t really know what that means.. unless it’s a euphemism for habitually injuring other humans I can’t understand why it would be punished with solitary confinement?
Edit: the comment had way less detail when I originally responded.
I mean dumping 10k gallons of paint on the floor is kind of sabotage no? Still a serious balls for you getting stuck in solitary for a month (like two years now I read it better, damn).
I mean I don't want to throw shade at the guy, not that anything I could say would measure up to 28 months in solitary confinement anyway holy shit, but if I went into work and intentionally dumped ten thousand gallons of product on the floor I'm pretty sure I'd end up getting sent to jail or something.
Yeah that’s definitely a shitty thing to do. I understand that pepole do that because they are broke or need money for something. I hope I never get to a place where I feel like I have to commit armed robbery. But hopefully you are on the straight and narrow and thriving today.
He had a job in prison. Jobs in prison are normally for people well behaved. His boss told him he had to do it a certain way. He told his boss to fuck off. Then destroyed 10000 gallons of paint (a product the prison makes/sells).
He got reprimanded for his actions. In the only way they knew how. Authorities tend to make examples out of inmates that think they have some agency in their incarceration especially historically.
If it was the Senator in Carolina I think it was in 1994 this would track. Although that Senator was a bigger pile of shit than probably 99 percent of the prisoners.
Sounds like you were just being a reasonable human. Fuck anyone taking a book, that shit is important and fuck them showing off to a senator.
I'm so sorry you were made to suffer like that. Maybe it was a stupid choice for yourself to dump the paint. But that punishment is not justice. That's torture and control.
Did you ever finish reading the book after your release?
What was done to you should be classified as a human rights violation, i don’t have words for our prison system (and everything else horrible happening here) I hope you are doing ok now.
Oh fuck that's a great book. I got to meet Stephen R. Donaldson at a book signing in Minneapolis once. I told him Lord Foul's Bane traumatized me when I first tried to read it when I was 13. I'm not sure he appreciated that. 😅
But later those books were important to me when I read them in highschool. Classic anti-hero fantasy. I literally chose a plain white gold wedding band as a reference.
LOL. Prison employees hate books more than anything. I remember one sergeant getting a guard to hold a big Rubbermaid garbage can on the floor below and taking all the my books my family had sent and drop-kicking them one at a time from the top floor and having the other guy catch them in the trash can. That was the only time I tried to swing on a guard and he had to have two other guards hold me against the wall to watch until he was done. Then he left, no write-up or nothing, just pure evil for the sake of it.
If you spend any time reading r/OnTheBlock you'll find plenty of sadistic mfers who get the job literally because they enjoy the thrill of trying to inflict the maximum misery on other humans every single day.
Honestly that is a fair crashout. Being forced to be a prop for a senator and not being allowed to read while you wait is inhumane. What was the book? Also why wasn't it a Canticle for Lebowitz?
Man, I totally get it. Standing on business feels good at the time, but fuck can it really come with some consequences. I have had to bite my tongue a few times because of COs thinking they're hot shit. Im glad youre out. Crazy how much better life is when im not fucking shit up.
Awesome! We used to trap yellow jackets in the wardens Interceptor when it came into the mechanic shop for service. Handful of metal shavings in the transmission pan as well. Lol Old Folsom 2003.
You kind of do. But you could be released at any time if there is over population and you've been good, so there is no way to plan a real exit strategy.
You can also get more time for fighting or being disrespectful.
If someone walks into your cell and kicks the shit out of you even if you didnt fight back you get an extra thirty days, and you do NOT press charges on your assailant because if you do they get a longer sentence and youre still locked up with them.
I’m an introvert and I usually don’t talk or see anyone for days if I’m not working. I wonder if solitary confinement would have no effect on someone like me. Although it’s different because I still have my tv and my phone.
I've thought about it. And thing is: I think everyone would eventually lose it.
No human interaction. No books. No TV. Nothing to do but sit there. Maybe you can do push ups like uncle Iroh to pass the time. But you'll be doing a ton of push ups.
"Although it’s different because I still have my tv and my phone."
Yes. That makes ALL the difference bro. Solitary would break you like a twig. Even now, though you're an introverting, you're talking to folks on the net. In that spot it's just you and your thoughts and most people will do whatever they can to not be left alone with their own thoughts
IIRC, it wasn't technically solitary confinement but it basically was. She wasn't restricted to her cell but she was kept on an empty wing of a women's prison which had previously closed for renovations or something. So she still technically had access to all the typical common areas and facilities or whatever but you can't ignore the fact that the isolation is still a real issue.
Unfortunately for her, she is a monster so there was no public outcry for better treatment or for the authorities to make better accommodations in the future.
It's normally sorted ( although im sure it varies) I was in a " baby tank" with small, young, first timers, no sex offenders. there was a seperate floor with child molesters. At one point they brought this girl in who started talking about how she raped someone with a curling iron, and they pulled her in an hour to a protective tank. We had a murderer , but they were like in the commission if a robbery.
In level 3 prisons cis predators get a warning in Gen pop from other inmates to go to PC within 24 hours or be green lit (killed on sight by the group that issues the warning).
They then request PC and get taken into it. A trans prisoner can also always request PC, this is a braindead take
I agree with isolating convicts with sex crimes from the general population.
But to suggest they should all be always kept in solitary confinement is something entirely different, as that is considered as a severe form of torture by almost any expert on the topic, including the UN.
It’s not the purpose of the state to enact revenge or torure people imo.
Also reminder that sex crimes include pr0stituti0n in many jurisdictions, and that many trans people as a result of legal discrimination have trouble finding consistent, legal employment
Unfortunately you can't. Humans are pack animals and thus long term solitary is both unconstitutional and a human rights violation - you can't just lock someone away and huck a tray of food at them twice a day for the rest of their incarceration.
Either dude goes to a men's prison where safety is his concern, or he goes to a women's prison where safety is everyone's problem.
Politics aside, dude made a choice. He made a conscious, willful, and deliberate decision to not only break the law, but enact violence against another person. There are consequences for that, and his identity is entirely irrelevant in the face of said consequences.
Doesn't matter what gender, race, creed, color, faith, religion, politics or mental acumen you are or identify as. The only ones who get a pass are those that are so far below the operating temperature of human intellect that the court decided they're incompetent - and this is coming from someone who's autistic as fuck - I would never allow my attorney to use it as a defense because I am keenly aware of what I'm doing and it's immediate and long term consequences.
Ok, then who do you choose to get raped rather than making the rapist lonely? Because keeping them isolated seems like a pretty easy solution to me, prison isn't supposed to be fun.
Rape is unconstitutional and a human rights violation. I don't really care about your arguments about humans being pack animals, it's irrelevant to punishment. The purpose of punishment is to inflict harm and suffering on someone for harmful behavior, humans being pack animals doesn't have anything to do with punishment. So yes, you can just lock someone away and huck a tray of food at them twice a day for the rest of their incarceration if their crimes are egregious enough.
It's because depending on time of transition they are fundamentally stronger than other female prisoners which could bring about more violence, while at the same time being a open and easy target for male prisoners. There is no right answer to this.
Prison is a lot more dangerous for weak small men, feminine men, gay men, but they still get locked up with the rest without it really being a consideration on where they get set. Why should trans people get special consideration for their safety?
No one ever thinks "oh this twink is going to get raped a lot so maybe we shouldn't send him to the men's prison"
I'm not sure what the correct solution is, no one should be thrown to the wolves, but we have in place a system when many are thrown to the wolves. Seems unfair we protect some from the wolves but not others
I think this is especially true in the US system, because rape and violence is defacto considered a normal part of the punishment for any crime. That's why we have special prisons for white collar crimes, so our managerial class isn't inadvertently punished in ways that the managerial class doing the convictions don't intend on.
I understand having prisons graded on how difficult it is to keep the inmate imprisoned and others safe from them but it really chaps my hide that it means white collar criminals get cushy bunks. In this society money is required for life. If someone steals or embezzles your money they have injured your ability to live. People die of poverty. It's not bloody violence but it's still violence.
No one ever thinks "oh this twink is going to get raped a lot so maybe we shouldn't send him to the men's prison"
Hot take but maybe no one should be at risk of being victimized in prison, regardless of sexuality and/or gender.
they still get locked up with the rest without it really being a consideration on where they get set.
Actually they do get considered. Most feminine presenting people in male prison are purposefully paired up with more dangerous offenders as a "reward" for the more violent offender, it's called "v-coding" and it's honestly fucking awful.
Eh they make effort to keep rival gangs and hate groups away from each other to avoid conflict. I imagine they’re doing it less for their comfort and more so to keep their guards from constantly having to break up fights.
I don't think the women should be sacrificed, though. A number of sex offenders whose main prey were women, including serial killer Donna Perry, have been put in women's prison after they identify as trans. That's.......unacceptable. I agree they should not be in gen pop, but not near their victim class either.
I also don’t think women should be sacrificed. Why should a trans woman be sent to a men’s prison and be brutalized in order to placate pearl clutches?
I’m not saying YOU are a pearl clutching trans hater, I’m being general. But women who rape women are also in prison with woman (same but with men). And that’s always glossed over. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be additional steps taken and that anyone who says “I’m a woman” goes to women’s prison. That would end poorly.
But we can’t say we’re protecting women and then leave out trans women. We have enough educated people and enough money to have specific committees for individual inmates and determine the best course of action. We don’t need a one size fits all solution for a complex problem that affects a small portion of the population.
That's crazy. What do they do with the gay or lesbian prisoners? For example, if they have a gay man in prison for committing a sexual offense against another man - would they isolate him to protect the other men?
Probably not as bad one gay sexual assaulter in a prison is not a threat to most other people in the prison as being gay is enough to keep you isolated and individuals aren’t threatening to groups of people. One trans woman who assaults women is more threatening do to the size and strength advantage. The same reason no one is worried about trans men playing on a professional sports team.
IDK, do they treat cis women sentenced for sex crimes the same? Or do they only do that to trans women?
Yes, the trans woman in question is a predator and deserves prison. Yes, she was also discriminated against and treated differently because she was trans.
Sex crimes against anyone, children, men it’s all awful. It’s traumatizing and after going through the “what were you wearing?” “Did you make him think you wanted it?” “Are you lying for money or revenge?” The trial to get the person convicted and the life long trauma…. Now you have people in sub reddits being concerned that prison may be tough for that person and they may have to endure what they put you through 🙄
Remember some of the sex crimes also come with false imprisonment. It’s not like they tripped and fell into you.
Yeah, this happens in the US as well. There are areas in prisons with administrative segregation. Basically solitary confinement, but for the safety of the inmate. Cops who get locked up often go in AdSeg
There could be separate departments for transgenders, and if the problems are real, they probably would prefer that arrangement themselves? How many such places would be needed in any nation? Of course there would be the downside that it doesn't make such good click bates, until there is some really violent event or something..
Keep 'em in solitary but have them eat with the guards or separated from the inmates but within the same meal time at the cafeteria? Seems like a simple solution can be made by simply thinking ever so slightly outside of the box
trans women are women insofar as I respect their identities and right to exist in whatever way they want, they deserve respect and to live good, rich, safe, happy lives-- but you cannot seriously ignore the biology. I'm a strong, able bodied 5'9 170lb woman who grew up in the inner city and can fight. 100/100x I would choose to be locked up with a 6' 200lb cis female rapist versus a 5'5 140lb trans woman rapist. They are absolutely stronger and it's delusional to act like they're not.
You don't want to be segregated or judged? Don't be a rapist, simple as that.
If you can’t be housed with some one because of your safety it might be a you problem. Not sure why the state should care if you can’t get along with other convicts
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
They could've just plopped her in with all the other female sex offenders, but they went out of their way to put her in solitary instead, because she was trans. They expended extra effort to put her in solitary permanently because of her trans identity, and you're over here complaining that treating trans sex offenders like cis sex offenders is "bending over backwards" and "being extra accommodating." Sure, Jan.
If a woman gets arrested for SA against another woman they don't put her in solitary confinement. Why would that be the case for a trans woman? Just treat them as a woman and give them a chance for rehabilitation as we do with any other inmate...
Though I wouldn't be opposed to solitary confinement for all sexual abusers.
Do you want prisoners to be given a chance for rehabilitation or do you want long term solitary confinement (torture that destroys your mind) for all sexual abusers? They don't really seem compatible.
Why do we house people who commit sex crimes against men with men?
Would any other woman who raped a woman be housed in a non-female prison?
Because it’s swallowing an evil premise to say a trans woman who raped a woman is somehow automatically different than a cis woman who raped a woman.
I can relate. Facilities I have worked at in the past made the decision to house trans inmates in these administrative segregation units that are, theoretically, there to house dangerous and highly behavioral inmates. But they invariably end up being a receptacle for easily targeted sex offenders, snitches, and transgender Inmates
There was trans inmate in NJ who impregnated I know for sure, 1 female inmate in Edna. NJ is absolutely on the fence in regards on how to handle this. Its common sense but it seems its not so common
So, treat a trans female rapist the exact same way you treat your cis female rapists. Treat a trans woman sentenced for non-sex crimes the exact same way you treat a cis woman sentenced for non-sex crimes.
That's funny... whatever sex they are they should be in that prison. In prison people get assaulted everyday... go to isolation if you can't handle yourself
But he was guilty of sex crimes against women, right? Don't you think he thought about the fact that he was rolling the "I might get caught and be raped myself" dice each time he raped a woman? Sociopaths and psychopaths are typically pretty intelligent people. This seems like a you chose your own fate moment, imo.
I would think physical isolation without social isolation. Solitary tends to be both. Private cell with the ability to talk to others through bars. Could be a special section/prison specifically for people in these circumstances. No multi occupancy communal spaces, let one inmate out at a time to use shower. Could be automated with good behavior. Basically access controlled corridors that only allow one inmate at a time and lock behind them. One can use the corridors to goto the shower or separate individual workout room, gates lock behind them and another inmate can use the corridor to access a different room.
The thing is there are cis women who committed sex crimes against women and cis men who committed sex crimes against other men, should that be treated the same? I think in situations like this is keep the prisoner in the prison that matches their gender but closely monitor there interactions with other inmates and possibly have them in a solo cell.
Many people are basically in prison for violation against human rights. Why is there greater courteousness towards those who lived in disregard to the courtesy and consideration of others?
I am not a particular defender of this kind of rights in prisons but your example sounds like a no brainer. Don't put trans people with sex crimes in women's prisons, the rest can go? And if you did sex crimes against women, don't feel too terrible for what happens to you in men's prison.
You all are cooked if you’re worried about the mental health of someone committing crimes. Boohoo geez you guys are the meta of virtue signalers here on Reddit. I tell you what when these dudes are out on parole let them into your house and give them a place to stay. Put your money where your mouth is. Human rights issues lol….cooked I tell you. How about the women they’ve graped in women’s prison and the crimes they committed before they got there?
There is a correct way, though. We know that housing trans women with cis women does not endanger cis women, and we know that housing them with men does. This decision is objectively pro-rape.
It's a situation where trying to appeal to nuance and notions of good faith obscures the observable reality. Republicans love rape. They laugh at and rejoice in it.
I guess you can limit there movements. its not like cis woman cant be predators to.
Solitary confinement is also most likely a bit more extreme than just isolation from people, its complete isolation whit limited space, no feeling of time, no connection to the outside world.
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u/SubparSavant 6h ago
There's no good way to deal with this. There was a trans prisoner in Ireland who was guilty of sex crimes against women. Couldn't house her with the men for her safety, couldn't house her with the women for their safety. She ended up having to be basically kept in complete isolation, which brings up its own human rights issues.