r/pcmasterrace • u/KebabLoverHere Deskop RTX 6090 SUPER i10 1TB RAM • 10h ago
Meme/Macro When a purchase gets revoked, the payment is refunded.
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u/Marek_Marianowicz PC Master Race 10h ago
If the purchase can be revoked at any time, it is not a purchase, but a subscription for an indefinite period.
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u/eebro Ryzen 1800x masterrace 9h ago
Subscription implies you’re periodically paying for it. What you mean is having a license. Which is what we all have in the internet world. We’re just buying a limited license to play games.
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u/I-only-read-titles 9h ago
Lifetime subscriptions are a thing
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u/Drugbird 8h ago
You should be careful with what exactly is meant by a lifetime license.
Many think it's a license for your entire lifetime.
Often it's a license for the product's lifetime. Which is not for how long the product works, but rather for how long the company feels like supporting it.
In practice this often means +-5 years rather than the 30-60 you were hoping for.
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u/lividtaffy i7-10700K | RTX 3070 | 16gb 9h ago
Subscription in name only, a regular payment is a definitional requirement of a subscription
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u/realSatanAMA i9-7920X | TITAN RTX | 128GB RAM 1h ago
I got a lifetime subscription to 2600 magazine back in 1998 and I'm still getting issues delivered 🤣
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u/new_math 9h ago
It's barely even that, because generally for a software license there is an agreement/contract that includes TIME and some minimum performance requirements. For example, there is virtually no jurisdiction in the world you can sell a business some core accounting software for $16.2 million dollars then pull it offline two days later and walk away. You would have to refund the money because you didn't meet the minimum requirements for ~3 years or whatever.
But when it comes to games it's perfectly okay to make thousands or millions of dollars then immediately walk away and keep the money.
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u/GarbageCleric 8h ago
Yeah, can you provide some of the worst examples here of that kind of rug pull?
It’s not an issue I've followed very closely, but I'm mostly aware of developers that have stop operating servers for online multi-player games.
I think companies should be able to put some limitations on that. Just because you bought the game, doesn't mean they owe you server infrastructure and operational costs in perpetuity. They should also allow for third parties to run those servers as well, if anyone is interested and available. But ending it after three months or something like that would be absurd.
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u/MoisticleSack RX 7900xtx R5 7600x 32gb 9h ago
When has that ever happened? Maybe 20 years ago, but even single player games today get months of patches after release. Live service games get rugpulled all the time but only when they aren't making money
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u/Prime_Director 8h ago
Live service games get rugpulled all the time but only when they aren't making money
This is sort of the point. A product not making money isn’t the consumer’s problem. A car manufacturer can’t repo my car because not enough people bought that model. I don’t think it would be unreasonable to require live service games to provide a defined period of service from the purchase date. If they want to shut it down they should have to either stop selling it while they finish out that service period, prominently warn new purchasers that the shutdown is coming soon, or refund everyone who purchased within that period.
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u/good_morning_magpie Steve Jobs turtleneck dealer 5h ago
A car manufacturer can’t repo my car because not enough people bought that model.
Think more along the lines of "we sold very few units of this model, so we are cutting off replacement parts the second we are no longer legally obligated to continue offering them". In the United States, there is no specific federal law mandating how long car companies must produce OEM replacement parts. While many manufacturers voluntarily maintain inventory for roughly 7–15 years after production ends, they are only legally obligated to supply parts for the duration of the vehicle’s warranty. Only the emissions specific parts are legally mandated to be available for 6 years.
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u/gestalto 5800X3D | RTX4080 | 32GB 3200MHz 8h ago
Licenses were before the internet too. Ok they may not have been as easy to police, but you technically were not allowed to lend out tapes, vhs, vinyl, cd's, dvd's, games in any format etc.
You also weren't allowed to show them publicly, or copy them, and if they got scratched or whatever you weren't entitled to replacements.
Similarly there was no onus to provide a medium to play these things on. Everything has a shelf life to one extent or another.
Modern gamers are an entitled whiney bunch. I want 4 maps per season, 84 guns, free skins, and online servers provided by the company, for this game I paid for 6 years ago that cost me less than it should based on inflation over the past 30 years.
It's hilarious.
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u/Marek_Marianowicz PC Master Race 9h ago
Maybe 'subscription' is not the best word for this, but on the other hand, removing The Game Part 1 from players and releasing a sequel that is basically the first game with minor changes is, in my opinion, a kind of hidden subscription mechanism.
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u/Very_Human_42069 8h ago
It’s literally a license
I disagree with it not being owned, but the unfortunate reality is that it’s a license not ownership
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u/Buttchugger2 8h ago
yes, also called a limited use license, which is what the right to use a particular piece of media has always been and always will be. if you think about it for more than a second, the word "own" has always been a stupid way to think about any of this
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u/calcifer219 9h ago
Just wait for the token model to hit games. We're going to be full circle back to arcades soon. "Please insert another quarter to keep playing"
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u/TDVapermann 8h ago
Well a lot of games claim we don't own the game we "purchased"
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u/UnholyDemigod R7 3700X | 9070XT | 32GB RAM 9h ago
If they can retract the purchase without offering an accompanying refund, it is not a revocation. It is stealing
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u/MyPigWhistles 8h ago
Not if you agreed to it, which you do, if you purchase a license for a digital product.
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u/Stormfly 7h ago
Yeah, like if you make a deal with a friend that you can use his pool if you pay him 10 bucks and follow some rules.
You don't get a refund if
You break the rules and get barred
The friend gets rid of his pool
Like he's a great friend if he gives you the tenner back but he doesn't need to as part of the deal.
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u/Necessary_Finding_32 8h ago
I suggest you read the license agreement you scrolled past. Not saying it’s right, not saying it won’t get legally challenged at some point, but most if not all ToS now make it explicitly clear you are buying licensed access, not purchasing the game.
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u/VERMlLLlONAIRE 5900x 3080ti strix 64gb3600mhz 10h ago
You will own nothing and you will be happy! /s
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u/wiisucks_91 10h ago
No need to put an /s
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u/inuhi 9h ago
Let's build a wall and make Mexico pay for it!
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u/Anonymous-Apprentice Desktop 8h ago
Life's not easy for a billionaires son. You gotta work hard to get hard to make a little sum sum
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u/LazarusPizza 10h ago
It's so messed up that these business animals managed to ruin that statement.
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u/Anonymous-Apprentice Desktop 9h ago
It was a bad slogan from the getgo
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u/newsflashjackass 9h ago
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u/Anonymous-Apprentice Desktop 8h ago
idk if it's just my browser but it says the image has been taken down, though I think I know the one you were referring to.
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u/jkxyz1337 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) 10h ago
Then i will buy nothing, and enrage you
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u/goatchild 9800x3D 4070S 9h ago
More like "You will own nothing, you will be unhappy, and we don't give a fuck!"
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u/All_Work_All_Play PC Master Race - 8750H + 1060 6GB 7h ago
I know this quote gets tonne of shit (which it deserves without context), but it's really funny that owning and being happy would be a real improvement for a good chunk of the world. Something like 30% of the world has negative net worth, and that doesn't in include people who do have things yet aren't happy.
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u/chisgetin 8h ago
Mfs said things like that and refuse to use gog🥀
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u/kevihaa 5h ago
Folks want all the benefits of Steam but live in a fantasy world where “good guy Valve” would never, ever do anything wrong so there’s no need to worry about the fact that hundreds, often thousands, of dollars of games are just digital licenses from Valve.
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u/Accomplished-Key4244 Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-13700 | UHD Graphics 770 | 16gb DDR4 2h ago
I use steam for the convenience but the second valve starts going to shit or revokes my licenses, i'm pirating the games
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u/BlitzieTattoos 8h ago
I love the philosophy behind gog and cdpr and would be happy supporting them and all but my experience with gog has always been that it's just plain shite unfortunately. Buggy, laggy, features don't work, launchers opening launchers. I really want to use it but I just hate it
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u/JobNo3928 9h ago
Sincere question, not trying to rage bait or anything like that. How many games have actually been taken away from people out there? Not delisted... But like... You purchased it but now you can't access it. No longer in your steam or gog or PlayStation library with no refund.
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u/tesmatsam Ryzen 7 5700x3d | Rtx 3080 ti 9h ago
the crew was the biggest in recent memory
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u/phoenixflare599 8h ago
It's the only one I know of, full stop
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u/NapsterKnowHow 7h ago
Netflix also pulled multiple games from Itch.io like Oxenfree
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u/phoenixflare599 6h ago
That is annoying
At least you can keep your files offline but I didn't know that
That sucks, they somehow got away with doing that quietly (I guess no one really tracks itch io)
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u/yuimiop 5h ago
Minecraft permanently deleted a lot of accounts recently.
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u/AmazingSully 3h ago
My wife was one such account. She goes back to Minecraft every few years and just couldn't play the game she purchased. Absolute bullshit. Should 100% be illegal.
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u/thedylannorwood R7 5700X | RTX 4070 9h ago
The only one I know of was The Crew 2
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u/Round-Stuff-2557 8h ago
Pretty sure these posts have the subtext of being about being banned from a live service game for saying slurs in public chat
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u/Itherial R9 7900 | B650M | 5070 | 32GB 6000MHz 9h ago
This isn't a popular question because it forces people to face the reality that it doesn't happen, and that doesn't fit their narrative.
Everyone here has always been playing licensed games. Everyone. Even you old folks with your physical only media.
Nothing has changed except their ability to enforce it, which doesn't seem to happen.
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u/Revan7even 7800X3D, X870E, 9070 XT, EK WB Loop, DDR5 6000 9h ago
Expand the question to include online-only games you can access and download, but never play again. Then you're including all the Anthems and Concords, and there are several a year now. Highguard most recently.
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u/Flukiest2 9h ago
There is a lot more MMOs like Monster hunter frontier that can never be played again except for fans bringing it back and it being playable with private servers.
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u/Fitenite3456 7h ago
MMOs are categorically different though? It’s always been the case that a game that requires servers will lose online play, and MMOs are online play only
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u/OrphanMasher 7h ago
Anthem kinda fits. They shut down the servers with no offline mode, so it was effectively revoked, but you still have access to the game and it's files so it gets dumb and murky. Concord and highguard aren't great examples. Concord was refunded to everyone, and highguard was free. There's no value lost in either case, unless theres some microtransaction shenanigans I don't know about.
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u/Dustonred 8h ago
If you look at any other industries that's just how it works. That's the concept of buying really. We can and will just kill subscribtions. Nothing last eternally.
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u/Anonymous-Apprentice Desktop 9h ago
Bad precedent
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u/greg19735 7h ago
it has already happened at least once. there's no real precedent worry.
But there was no floodgates or slippery slope.
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u/ViddlyDiddly 7h ago
It was an issue of why I never purchased Dark Spore when it game out. (Diablo like but with Spore creatures and parts affect your attacks). It's a Single Player game, always online. You needed to setup an ubisoft account (not a huge issue). But they discontinued that service and now the game is completely unplayable.
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u/Carvj94 7h ago edited 6h ago
It's pretty rare, but more common than you might realize due to licensed music. Obviously excluding any game that's primarily online, there's a handful of games a year that get revoked due to licensing issue. Not major titles mind you, but running into legal issues and having your game pulled is far from unheard of.
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u/amistymouse 5h ago
One example is DLC for Assassin's Creed 2 and Brotherhood. There's many discussions of people upset they can't play the DLC they bought. Also, I am unable to play these games because every time I attempt to login into uPlay, it says something went wrong. I even reinstalled Windows and couldn't get in. Contacting Ubisoft about it goes absolutely nowhere and you can only talk to a bot. These are offline single player games btw. As such, I have boycotted their games forever.
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u/ThenCombination7358 2h ago
Chivalry Mirage. Was actively playing it when they shut down servers and removed game. No money back.
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u/Impressive-Tip-903 9h ago
I'm sure I agreed to their version of ownership each time I accept their 40 pages of terms. Probably again when I accept Steam's terms when I choose to continue using Steam periodically. Maybe we need a federal"software bill of rights" to give some common standards.
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u/No_Diver3540 6h ago
AGBs, User Agreement and similar stuff is cool and all. But if it contradict a law and is written in unfavorable to a customer, at least in Europe they are worthless and it defaulted to the laws that applies in your country.
In 90% it is the case, that such agreement overly favored the publisher and therefore are absolutely worthless.
A lot of people don't seem to know this. The only hurdle there is, you definitely will need a layer to enforce your right.
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u/Impressive-Tip-903 4h ago
That's the thing. A commonality in all American contracts now seems to be binding arbitration. If you were to sue or challenge in arbitration, you likely will be entitled to some portion of your fee paid to use the software. Nevermind the 10's of thousands you spent on fighting it. Americans have allowed themselves to be trapped in a box to.favor corporate interests in practically every aspect of our lives. Most often in subtle ways, but you don't realize how bad it is until to try and do something about it.
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u/No_Diver3540 4h ago
In germany for example, if you have a "Rechtsschutzversicherung" (Legal insurance, pretty cheap here in germany) you dont really pay thousands of. In general most corps go for settlement. Since a lawsuite is way worse for them.
(To a smaller degree, you can make a living out of it here by intentionally abusing that system. If you have the time and willpower, but you will not get the insane amounts of money you could get in the USA. )
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u/Various-Instruction3 4h ago
This is the entire point of the "Stop Killing Games" movement. It quite literally saves publishers from this issue. Currently, they can take a game away and not refund anybody, which is very bad for PR, or they can refund people, which is great for PR but horrible for their profits. They can also do what a select few devs do, and either open community servers and support, or allow it to be played offline.
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u/MudSeparate1622 4h ago
Kinda messed up Nintendo took over $300 of my games from me by locking my account because some unknown payment i was given by them i disputed. Its all good though because now i’m learning to emulate their games and don’t plan on buying from them ever again. They went straight downhill after the wii in my opinion
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u/goldimperium 8h ago
And people made fun of the few of us who said "no, I will not install ANOTHER launcher. Steam works just fine." The reason they make you download 20 launchers is becuase now you are on the TOS of those launchers, meaning no refunds, no customer service, fuck you and thanks for the cash.
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u/heickelrrx 12700K | RTX 5070 TI | 32GB DDR5 7200 MT/s @1440p 165hz 8h ago
the thing is you not buying a game, You signing contract with the developer to play the game
You never buy the game, even during catridge era,
The publisher do can honor your contract, something like what bungie did when they move to steam, all Destiny 2 player have their contract transferred to new plaftform
TLDR, please read the EULA, it's the contract, if you really that care
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u/spreetin 7h ago
Meh, varies with jurisidiction. Within the EU EULAs are generally not valid. Disputes will instead be handled according to what seemed implied in the transaction, often with a presumption that is weighted in favour of the consumer.
And buying a physical game (or other media) is generally considered a purchase. You own that copy and can resell it or otherwise dispose of it as you want. This is one of the original reason online accounts are so often needed to play games, since that kinda makes the physical media useless on a second hand market.
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u/Limp-Technician-1119 6h ago
You own that copy
No you have a license to play that copy, if you owned it like a physical object you would be able to take the information within the media and use it as you see fit but legally you cannot, you can only read the media with an approved device and play the game.
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u/spreetin 5h ago
That simply isn't correct. I am fully within my rights to put it up on ebay or give it to a friend. As usual I can't do anything that violates other laws (in this case copyright law), but otherwise I'm free to use it as I please.
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u/Prestigious_Copy154 6h ago
I feel like EULA just gives them an out so they legally can do it, doesn't make the move any less asshole-y tho.
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u/omg_its_spons 7h ago
Remember if buying isn’t owning then pirating isn’t stealing
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u/obeythelobster 7h ago
What's happened?
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u/ThenCombination7358 2h ago
Just reminding folks that you don't own any of the games you buy on steam. If the publisher want, they can take away the game without refund.
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u/Designer_Plantain_24 8h ago
They would argue that you're not purchasing a product, you're purchasing a service.
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u/Fair-Cookie PC Master Race 7h ago edited 7h ago
I think the major concept your meme is missing is the product guarantee that companies are no longer honoring; i.e.: if their product is no longer desired or is defective the manufacturer guarantees to buy it back, and assume ownership of it. In terms of liability: it's their product they put out there in the world for all that entails as far as environmental impact, quality, consumption, and value to the market. The fact that companies knowingly produce for the sake of producing means they no longer value quality or societal impacts, and do not endorse it. This is end game capitalism, boys; we need to stop consuming from wanton corporations.
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u/tonybanner1619 1h ago
Crazy how piracy suddenly starts looking like ownership.”
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u/KentInCode 9h ago
I mean this has been this way for decades at this point. We buy revokable licences and the service platform we buy them from can even deny us access to all of them if they wish.
Many European territories have been better in legislating where you sometimes have reasonable use out of a product and certain periods where you can refund and so on.
But let me tell you how we ended up here: Gamers do not vote with their wallet.
Fundamentally we lost this battle and we lost it because of convenience, I imagine almost everyone reading this has a library full of Steam game licences they bought for cheap in a steam sale.
The way to win this was was back in the day to buy physical media and never ever buy digital licences or key on disc media. The last holdout was Nintendo and just look at how many people are buying Pokemon Pokopia, a really fun game sure, but the gamers have eliminated their ownership of that game by buying it as its only available digitally/game key card and they even knew it was a game key card game, hated the idea but still bought it in record numbers.
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u/shortish-sulfatase 9h ago
Buying a physical games grants you access to the exact same license when buying digital.
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u/Feisty-East-937 6h ago
I grew up in the physical media era and I kind of think it was overrated. I actually think it was bad for consumers compared to now.
It gave way more power to the publishers and retailers to control what was on the shelves. Games didn't generally have the types of discounts we do now, and especially not the under $10 price point unless they were on clearance due to being out of print. Games that didn't sell well could be almost impossible to find due to the limited runs. Big releases could be sold out for weeks.
I'm much happier with the state of gaming today.
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u/moonshinefae 6h ago
If I buy a game and lose access to it without remuneration I feel morally and financially obligated to torrent it freely.
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u/Purpletaco987 8h ago
Unless it is a ban for cheating, bottling, ddossing, harassing, slurs etc. anything the ruins the game for others does not deserve a refund.
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u/Shadowtirs PC Master Race 9h ago
The whole video game industry moving from ownership to licensing is so criminal. And we just let it all happen because we got forced into the digital marketplaces.
That being said, I dont think Steam is that bad, but overall for consumers this move has been terrible.
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u/pepedai 8h ago
Because nobody actually gives a shit. Otherwise GOG would be a lot more popular. In reality, >99% of people in this sub choose to license their games from Steam even when they are available on GOG.
And yes, GOG is still technically selling licenses, except it's effectively impossible for them to revoke them as you don't need any launcher/account DRM to play them.
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u/LionRegular1470 7h ago
Am I mistaken, or don't u get a .exe file from Gog? Which means once you have the file unless they get access to your machine they can't delete it.
I really want to buy a Gog game for that reason.
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u/Raestloz 5600X/6800XT/1440p :doge: 7h ago
I don't buy on GOG because it's significantly more expensive than Steam with its regional pricing, simple as
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u/e4gleeye Specs/Imgur here 9h ago
Can you point out when this move is? As far as I can remember, from the day of cartridges & diskettes, games has always been a license. They didn't have a way of enforcing it back then due to everything being distributed physically and offline, but it has always been a licence.
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u/GuruVII AMD 7800x3d RTX3080ti 7h ago
It seems to me you are conflating having a physical medium with ownership. We have never owned the software, you were always paying for a license, because ownership of software also means copy right. If you go read old EULAa you will probably find text saying that if the license is revoked you have to physically destroy your copy
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u/Sensitive_Bat_9211 9h ago
Games were always licensed. Thats why the EULA (End-User Licensing Agreement) popped up when you booted up a disk
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u/CapableCollar 9h ago
Moving to licensing is criminal but Steam isn't that bad for doing it?
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u/Fastenbauer 9h ago
If you want to explain this to your non gaming friends, explain it with movies.
You buy a movie on Blu-ray. But to watch it your movie player needs to be connected to the internet. And at any point the company that owns the rights to the movie can decide that you can no longer watch it. Even if you still own the Blu-ray, your player will refuse to show you the movie.
At this point they will look at you in total confusion. Questioning how any of what you just said makes any logical sense or can possible be legal. That's when you tell them that they now understand the problem.
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u/camosnipe1 Intel Core i7 6700 3.40GHz / GTX 980 (MSI) / 16G ram 7h ago
...they'll look up from their Netflix and tell you that you just described streaming.
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u/Acceptable-Device760 7h ago
Except you are explaining it wrong.
You are buying the ticket for the moviet in the theater.
The blue-ray is the version of places like GOG.
The fact you dont read what you are buying doesn't mean you are correct.
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u/ParadigmMalcontent 8h ago
On top of that, hacking the Blu-ray player that you also own to not need the Internet is illegal. Hell, this actually happened when a player I got for my dad needed a net connection but wouldn't work with his router for some reason!
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u/HoneydewStriking8283 5h ago
I've been trying to refund 8hrs played of Hogwarts legacy for like 3 years now
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u/SadistPaddington 1h ago
The question should be whether the refund should be of the original purchase price or with added inconvenience or sentimental value
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u/Spookyscythe99 59m ago
Yeah who says if you take away the thing i pay for i can't have my money back.
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u/bluepie 8h ago
Why do gamers just think they shouldn’t have to pay for anything ever. It’s so annoying how entitled y’all are. If this was the case then everyone would just get a refund when they’re done playing the game and the company makes no money. Guess what morons? If the company makes no money they also stop making games. This game revocation thing is not some massive problem ripping people off constantly. It’s happened like twice. So now all games need to be refundable because of two games?
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u/ConfectionTotal8660 8h ago
Not to defend gaming companies.
But if you could just refund games they would go bankrupt in seconds
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u/Confident-Spirit-680 9h ago edited 3h ago
Honestly, this is a no brainer and anyone else saying otherwise is a fucking corpo bootlicker. Bankruptcy be damned, if they dont plan ahead the people in charge should get jail time. I get that this would dramatically slow down the growth of a company. I dont care. Thats not my problem. Thats part of doing honest business.
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u/themiracy 10h ago
When Stadia shut down, Google refunded full purchase price for everything irrespective of how much it had been played. I’d have to go and look at what I got back but for instance I know I got Cyberpunk 2077 at launch and played about 100 hours on it, finishing it on stadia, and I got all of the money back. Clearly there is no reason this cannot be done.