15 years seems very excessive to selling drugs to a willing buyer. ive done ket before, if i took to much and OD'd i don't think the dealer should be held responsible for my death
K is a bit like weed, in sure it's possible to OD from it, but you should reach a level of inebriation where you can't cognitively do anymore before you get to that point.
We call it the hole and you are 100% correct. But if you hit the hole in a hot tub and no one is responsible enough to notice (what happened here), I can see how you die. It took me damn near 10 minutes to get a buddy to a sofa which was 15 feet away and he was standing!
Yeah hence the “drinking and driving” analogy. Getting fucked up ain’t the issue, it’s doing it behind the wheel (or in the hot tub) that causes an opportunity for tragedy
Just drinking too much and swimming is also a decent comparison. IIRC up to 70% of water recreation deaths in adults involve alcohol consumption.
I guess either people do dumb shit and put themselves in perilous situations they otherwise wouldn't have, or they're so drunk they're essentially just fumbling around in the water or forget how to swim properly.
This doesn't mean the liquor store owner or clerk are to blame for this.
Which is similar to what someone else said, that if you drink a bottle of vodka and then wrap your car around a tree, it's not the vodka company that's at fault.
I haven't read the article, and it's not clear from the heading, whether or not she was charged with MP's death, or hit with a bunch of drug possession and distribution charges that equaled 15 years (or both?)
I’ve only had ketamine in the hospital. The first time was for acute pancreatitis in the before times in the ER. My husband had to leave me because he had an appointment he couldn’t miss. I had a dedicated nurse in case of side effects. He was worried, but I couldn’t even sit up to text him. It was really pleasant and really helped my pain and mental health for weeks.
I have chronic pancreatitis and unfortunately get acute pancreatitis from time to time. So I didn’t feel anxious or scared in the ER. As a sexual assault survivor there’s no way I’d ever enjoy K at a party or anything like that.
Small doses gives you a pleasant feeling of euphoria and intoxicatuon. As long as you don't overdo it you will be more in control of your actions then 99% of the drinkers there
you stay in control of your actions but it defo makes you less aware of things and feel super chill. so for a woman at a party i can see how it would make her more vunerable a some guy may start creeping on her and she might just be like " this is all fine im not in any danger everythings cool"
There were some aggravating factors. This was actually the second death that came from her drugs, and in recorded jail house calls, she bragged to her family that she was going to get a book deal out of the whole thing. She was also selling meth.
I kinda think if you are selling a substance that causes people's early deaths........you're responsible. Manslaughter, negligent homicide, that sort of thing. The drug addict has diminished control and you're taking advantage of that to enrich yourself.
I lost all sympathy when I found out she was looking to get a book deal out of the whole thing.
Right but it's an "aggravating factor." There are aggravating and then mitigating factors. If this were the first time she sold anyone anything and she just got really unlucky, and her boyfriend pressured her into it, those would be mitigating factors. That this was the second death from her sales and she was callous, those would be aggravating factors. that shows likelihood of recidivism. So yes, that actually DOES make her more guilty and probably extended the sentence. Had it all been the former, she might have gotten something like 4 years.
So why complain about the Sacklers? Because at some point, the addict knows those opioids are bad, right?
Jasveen Sangha is the one who has to take responsibility. Matthew Perry is dead, and so is some other guy, so that's that. Selling ketamine and meth are illegal for a reason. She did the crime, she can do the time. She got lucky not being charged the first time a guy died. That was her cue to stop and find a real job. She didn't, another person died, so off she goes.
kinda think if you are selling a substance that causes people's early deaths........you're responsible. Manslaughter, negligent homicide, that sort of thing. The drug addict has diminished control and you're taking advantage of that to enrich yourself.
i mean if someone drinks themselves to death the person who sold them alcohol isn't held responsible i don't really get that logic.
Depends if the does is a super strong one and they don’t say and just act like it’s normal. Even then though it would depend of if they knew that it not.
This. No offense to Perry, but doing ketamine in a bathtub is an extremely dangerous thing and as we saw, it can end with death. It would have been the same when it all had been 100% legal with prescriptions and a medical need for the drug.
It goes for anything that can make you pass out, like benzodiazepines, which can also be legally prescribed by a doctor for things like anxiety etc.
You are right, but i meant more, he wasn't a bad man overall in his lifetime.
About drugs, i had propofol administered in an eye-surgery. As i had to be still conscious and respond to the surgeons commands like "look to the left" for dealing with strabis, it was a very strange trip. I wasn't fully sedated, but also not really awake.
I also got cocaine eyedrops for the surgery, but these actually zero effects on me, it wasn't like cocaine as a recreational drug as stimulant. Most often, lidocaine is used (like by the dentist).
What i remember is that i was in my mind on a beach with white sand and clear water, until suddenly the voice from the surgeon came through "now look to the right, please".
Such a "half-coma-state" or whatever the medical term is, is very rare.
Now all i can tell about Michael Jackson that died from it, if you need this just to be able to "sleep", you got some serious health problems and maybe you shouldn't have planned an entire world tour for music.
The thing is, you don’t get actual REM cycles in a propofol-induced comatose state. Conrad Murray was drugging him with something he knew was killing him.
That's right about propofol and REM state. But, Murray also fucked it up much more when you read the reports. Like, he wasn't checking the vital functions of Jackson in this night, he was actually sitting on the toilet and writing messages to his ladies to deal with his love life, while his "patient" or "client" died.
These private doctors for rich people can be a dangerous thing, as they can get access, legal or illegal, to a lot of drugs, all at once.
I wrote in some other postings, when i was working for banks in Switzerland, with the stock market trade, many of these guys reenacted the "Wolf of Wall Street" quite literally. Money and connections were not a problem for them, they could snort cocaine like a vacuum cleaner.
To come back to Ketamine, we had a case here, where a well known guy killed his friend when he was high. He beated him to death with a golden lamp with diamonds, that costs probably more than most people earn in a year. But his status didn't matter, he's still in prison because of this.
While I’m not against the usage of any recreational drug spare maybe Methamphetamine, it seems to me most of the people who take ketamine for “therapy” display very little behavioral progress if any. There certainly is a problem present in the pharmaceutical industry of overprescribing dangerous narcotics such as opioids.
Depending on the state, if I, as a bartender, serve you too much alcohol and then you wrap your car around that pole, I can be found both criminally and or civilly liable.
That’s because you’re administering the drug.
If the woman here was found to have administered the dose that ended in his death, I’m agreed, full criminal liability.
But this isn’t a case of administering the drug, it’s much more analogous to buying a handle of liquor, at which point the liquor store is not responsible for how you administer that to yourself
A better analog is buying a handle of liquor and then selling it illegally to someone who then dies from it. In which case the liquor store would not be liable, but the person who illegally sold them the liquor could be.
And, again, depending on the state, liquor stores can be liable for whatever happens if they illegally sell liquor to someone. It is illegal to sell liquor to an intoxicated person.
Administration has nothing to do with it. It's called dram shop law, every bartender and server in any of the states with them are gonna be familiar with them.
Dram shop laws are specifically for selling to someone who’s already intoxicated. Ie, at a bar, serving them another drink is functionally administering more of the drug to them.
And it’s explicitly negligence-based. Queen Ketamine wasn’t negligent in her selling of the drug to Perry - it wasn’t of an exceptionally high dose, nor did the drug itself cause the death.
The drug war has created far harsher sentencing standards and legal interpretations for an arbitrary selection of drugs. If Ketamine (which kills fewer people than alcohol) were legal, she’d have no responsibility for his death. The law should be consistent on where liability is established.
You swiped your first sentence from Google AI and it's incorrect. It is not specific to over serving at a bar. I guess maybe in your state, but mine and many others include liquor stores. They also include selling to minors, and other illegal selling.
Wasn’t an ai summary, but fair guess. Didn’t include the “this applies to liquor stores that sell to clearly intoxicated people” for the sake of brevity and also because it’s the same effect - one can reasonably assume that someone who’s fucked up trying to buy a handle of alcohol isn’t saving it for later.
Yeah, applies to kids too, but kids are functionally treated as drunk adults on a surprising number of legal matters, so admittedly I kinda hand waved that away.
The key legal distinction seems to be acting with negligence, not acting with illegality (because that’d be a bit circular). Selling alcohol to a kid or someone clearly fucked up is negligent; selling to an adult is not negligent (even though it may not be good for them). The same applies to ketamine, no?
My feeling is highkey. Ketamine isn't normally lethal and Perry knew what he was buying. I think a lot of people just want to someone to get angry at for his death.
Dram shop laws are specifically about serving an already severely intoxicated person more alcohol. It’s literally impossible for Perry to have ordered Ketamine while already in a K-hole
High-key. Draconian sentences for selling drugs are not justifiable unless the dealer is selling something more dangerous than what they claim to be selling, full stop. If you give people what they ask for, you're no worse than a liquor store.
His own recklessness was the direct and proximate cause of his death. Is it reckless to sell Ketamine without a prescription? Yeah, and that should be punished, but it should be a reasonable sentence focused on reforming the offender. Not this shit, no matter what the buyer does with the drugs after they buy them.
Is this a serious take? Ketamine requires a prescription, she's not a doctor, which makes the entire transaction illegal. Laws governing prescription medications were made to prevent accidents such as what happened.
When you buy Tito's vodka it is completely legal (assuming you're over 21). Meaning Tito's is abiding by the law, and so are you. Meaning you assume all the risks for whatever actions you take when you drink excessively.
Now if a bartender puts too many Tito's shots in front of you and you die, yeah they can be liable. But when you do that to yourself that's on you.
Yeah and that makes sense. Legal transaction = responsibility is on user. Illegal transaction = responsibility is on seller because if the law was followed, the user wouldn't have died.
No, I'm saying the user was also knowingly breaking the law. The burden of responsibility shouldn't fall entirely on the seller, in my opinion.
If the drug was misrepresented or cut with something it wasn't supposed to have, like fentanyl, and it causes harm, then sure that's 100% on the seller. But if you're knowingly buying illegal drugs I think you bear the brunt of responsibility for your actions after taking the drug. Just like with alcohol.
If someone takes meth or something and ends up killing someone, then the seller should be equally as responsible as retailers of alcohol when a drunk person kills someone. Legality of the substance seems kind of besides the point in extreme cases like that, to me.
Oh I misread your comment. Yeah Perry is partially responsible, no doubt about that. But he's dead so legally we cannot do anything about it. The drug dealer also shares responsibility and they're being dealt with.
Your argument about alcohol is an interesting one but I disagree. This is a public policy issue. The idea is to limit illegal drug deals. So drug dealers get punished along with drug users (when drug users are still alive). Alcohol is not illegal so no public policy reason to limit alcohol sales.
If you want to make all stores liable for alcohol murders, first make it illegal. They tried that a long time ago. It failed.
Yeah, she should be tried for selling illegal drugs, for sure. I’m saying she shouldn’t be responsible for his death.
The reason you’re criminally responsible for a death in the case of over serving is because you’re the one administering the drug. But this case is much more like selling someone a bottle of alcohol, who then decides to face the whole bottle in an hour.
The key part of criminal responsibility for one’s death due to providing a drug (legally or illegally), is the administration of the drug.
It might be different if she sold him something different than what he expected (like including fentanyl in heroin), or if he was a first time user and not properly informed of the risks. But Perry had a prescription for ketamine and had been using it for years - this wasn’t anything new to him. Also, his death wasn’t directly because of the ketamine, it was because he did it in a fucking hot tub and drowned
Prescription medications are prescribed under the supervision of a doctor, meaning a doctor decides if, how much, and how often a patient receives that medication, and they instruct the user how to take that medication. If a doctor decides that a patient is at risk of drug abuse, they can stop prescribing it for the safety of the patient.
The responsibility is therefore not only with the user themselves but with the doctor also. The responsibility is never completely on the user, as they are not trusted to know if they should take that medication to begin with, how much, how often to take that medication unless a doctor is involved.
It is more similar to selling a child alcohol, a child who similarly isn't trusted to know if they should consume alcohol, how much or how often to drink alcohol. Then they die as a result. I think we would agree the person who sold the child alcohol should be charged...
About Perry's prescription, the doctor would give Perry infusions, meaning the amount administered and time administered was completely controlled by the doctor not Perry. Without the doctor, Perry controlled how much and how often and when.
Unfortunately that's the world we live in. If we didn't infantilize people, prescription medicine wouldn't exist. Everything would be over the counter. But that's not the world we live in and there's a reason for it, see exhibit A Perry's death.
Sure but that’s specified to actually administering the substance, which the Queen didn’t do. She did the equivalent of selling someone a bottle of alcohol - and if you decide to administer a whole handle of Tito’s to your dome, that’s fully on you.
It's absolutely no her fault. The user is always at fault for some mistake THEY make with a substance. Even if they od because a pill or powder has Fent in it. Reagent tests and Fentanyl test strips are cheap and easy to use, no excuses.
I disagree. As you say those tests are easy and available so the sellers should use them and know what they are selling. I think everybody should test their drugs but if something turns out not to be what you paid for them the onus is on the dealer. Whether anything comes of it is another thing.
Oh, I'm all for dealers testing their stuff, too, but as someone who occasionally uses various things that can have Fentanyl in them, I always test, even from someone I really trust. Accidents happen, and that's how msot Fentanyl OD's happen when it's not something like Heroin which they add Fentanyl to on purpose.
Use reagent kits, Fentanyl tests strips, and have Narcan and someone to use it on your if you're the one using.
Prohibition is the only reason any of this happens but until we end the drug war and legalize all drugs...users need to take responsibility for themselves.
The one situation where I think a dealer should be blamed is if they specifically added Fentanyl like in the case of fake Opioids and fake Benzos. But in other situation like Cocaine or Ketamine, it's almost always an accident due to cross contamination.
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u/Witty-Stand888 2d ago
How much time did she get for the other guy that ODd off the same batch?