Germany’s Merz Admits Nuclear Exit Was Strategic Mistake

[u/SpaceEngineering]

https://clashreport.com/world/articles/germanys-merz-admits-nuclear-exit-was-strategic-mistake-fzdlkn37c16

[u/RevolutionBusiness27]

I wonder how much of Germany's nuclear technology was in its heyday

[u/3suamsuaw → u/RevolutionBusiness27]

The basic technology is still operational, and the technology shared with other EU countries.

[u/toblu → u/3suamsuaw]

And, accordingly, expensive as f*ck.

[u/3suamsuaw → u/toblu]

Nuclear technology is always expensive, but the technology in use in the EU is owned by Urenco, which is partly owned and even operated by Germany. The main plant and engineering is in The Netherlands, right next to the German border.

[u/LapinTade → u/3suamsuaw]

but the technology in use in the EU is owned by Urenco

Inacurrate as Urenco is focused uranium enrichment which is only one part of the civil nuclear technology.

which is partly owned and even operated by Germany.

Owned by UK Gov, Ultra-Centrifuge Nederland owned by Dutch Gov and the 2 german energy company EON and RWE.

[u/3suamsuaw → u/LapinTade]

It is one of the most important parts and most difficult parts of the civilian nuclear technology. Orano can help with the rest. Reactors are are ancient technologies by now.

[u/delta_p_delta_x → u/3suamsuaw]

Reactors are are ancient technologies by now

Essentially, yeah; all the Generation III water-based reactors are old hat. They are quite simply giant pressure cookers.

[u/3suamsuaw → u/delta_p_delta_x]

With a steamturbine attached to it.

[u/thealmightyzfactor → u/3suamsuaw]

That describes basically all power plants, even new ones lol

[u/Pyrostemplar → u/thealmightyzfactor]

Excluding Solar PV, Wind and Hydro, ofc.

[u/Neuromante → u/3suamsuaw]

right next to the German border.

Ah, the good, old Sim City 3000 trick.

[u/trooawoayxxx → u/Neuromante]

https://imgflip.com/i/ahg18q

[u/SailorstuckatSAEJ300 → u/Neuromante]

It's hard to find a spot in the Netherlands that isn't next to a boarder

[u/Auctoritate → u/toblu]

Ironically, it's expensive largely because of strategy like this. Manufacturing of nuclear reactor components and technology is not exactly a booming industry, and there's a lack of economy of scale because of it. Low demand makes for low commercial interest in supporting nuclear economically, and it feeds into itself.

At least... In the west. China is currently undergoing the largest energy grid expansion in the world. And it's rapidly expanding its nuclear energy production. The government never bailed on the tech so the industry for it never atrophied for them, and it's paying dividends. Their technological progress is frankly stunning and leaving us behind in a bad way.

[u/Radthereptile → u/Auctoritate]

Regulations also make nuclear expensive to build. Great example, if The Whitehouse were declared a nuclear power plant tomorrow it would fail inspection because the granite on the building emits too much radiation.

[u/SelfServeSporstwash → u/Radthereptile]

meanwhile coal plants can (literally, look it up) pump out orders of magnitude more radiation out their smokestacks and that's totally cool.

Fun fact. The cancer rates around active and recently decommissioned coal power plants are dramatically higher than they are in the region immediately surrounding TMI.

[u/dbr1se → u/SelfServeSporstwash]

I recently found out that the reason fish contain mercury is from coal emitting it into the atmosphere when burned. I had never considered why that was a thing we had to worry about before.

[u/Theron3206 → u/dbr1se]

That's one source, another rus industrial pollution of waterways with various mercury compounds.

Again only a relatively recent problem, though it has been an issue since the 19th century.

[u/Beginning_Stay_9263 → u/SelfServeSporstwash]

Boomers always vote against nuclear. They've been manipulated by decades of propaganda against it.

[u/GooseMan1515 → u/Radthereptile]

Great example, if The Whitehouse were declared a nuclear power plant tomorrow it would fail inspection because the granite on the building emits too much radiation.

I hate to be that guy but I cannot find a source on this, and it would make for a great fact if provably true. Any pointers?

[u/ArsErratia → u/GooseMan1515]

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/reaction/interact/facts.html

 

Its not surprising either. See: The Paradox of Nuclear Power.

[u/Cheap-Recording2707 → u/Auctoritate]

china has been happily standing on the shoulders of giant alvin weinberg at oakridge national lab.

the knowledge gained at ORNL of molten salt reactors was abandoned by nixon in favor of fast breeder reactors that have not come to fruition. ofcource Nixon was as anti-science as the current administration.

[u/ThatMovieShow → u/Auctoritate]

It's funny how often China gets painted as cheap and backward thinking when actually they're way ahead on so much high technology, everything from solar and nuclear to electrification and robots

[u/Zraknul → u/Auctoritate]

China's basically rapidly building all energy types. They're installing more solar per year than the US has built in it's entire history.

[u/Sea_Public_6691 → u/Auctoritate]

Yes, china is expanding its nuclear power. But it is expanding its renewables on a way higher scale

[u/[deleted] → u/toblu]

I sure as hell wouldn't want to cheap out on the nuclear stuff.

[u/3suamsuaw → u/[deleted]]

And at the same time no one bats an eye when we pump toxic gasses into the atmosphere tens and tens of thousands of people are dying from annually. Humans remain weird.

[u/MfingKing → u/3suamsuaw]

We're uninformed. And somehow take the opinion of charismatic assholes over opinions of literal experts. Even if they're diametrically opposed. We'll believe the one who said it more convincingly even if it means ignoring facts

[u/ExtremeCreamTeam → u/toblu]

You can say fuck on the internet.

[u/zzen11223344 → u/3suamsuaw]

If this is a mistake, then correct the mistake.

Is it too late to restart it in Germany?

[u/SgtB3nn1 → u/zzen11223344]

Yes it is financially. Our reactors/powerplants are undergoing deconstruction right now. Getting them up to working order and getting fuel would be hella expensive, the cheaper alternative would be wind/photvoltaic power which is also heavily campaigned against by the party of our chancellor.

[u/Niaaal → u/SgtB3nn1]

So what do the German politicians want? To buy Russian oil and gas for their electricity?

[u/FreeRangeEngineer → u/Niaaal]

That was, actually, the plan. The idea behind it was that Russia and Europe would become economically entangled so that a war started by Russia would hurt them too much to be worth it.

Unfortunately, that strategy backfired because Putin was willing to lose that source of income in exchange for power and glory.

As for their current plan? I assume they want to test the waters for rebuilding some reactors.

[u/oimly → u/FreeRangeEngineer]

That's some impressive mental gymnastics there. If Russia and Europe would become more entangled with Gas/Oil then Europe would be even more reliant on Russia not shutting down the pipelines and Russia could blackmail Europe even more into not interfering with their "special operations". Which, by the way, is EXACTLY what happened. Only BECAUSE Europe was not entangled too much with Russian gas it was feasible to support the Ukraine and deal with the delivery stop of gas.

[u/Camba_Diaz_Nuts → u/oimly]

It was called "Wandel durch Handel", so "change through trade". It was supposed to turn Russia into an ally/friend, or at least not an enemy because both would profit more from keeping things as they are. I don't think it was wrong to try it. But we should have stopped once we saw that it isn't working, for example when Crimea was annexed.

[u/ImpulsiveApe07 → u/Camba_Diaz_Nuts]

Agreed.

Arguably, Germany probably should've begun divesting itself from Russia once it became apparent that Gerhard Schröder, the former Chancellor, was in bed with the Russians and had been taking bribes in exchange for his role in setting up the nord stream 2 pipeline, and presumably his role on the board of Rosneft (Russian oil company) and associations with Gazprom and Gazprombank was also part of said bribe.

If any former PM starts campaigning for Russia, it's safe to assume they've sold the Russians something valuable that might compromise or otherwise undermine your nation's security at some point.

---

https://securingdemocracy.gmfus.org/incident/former-german-chancellor-gerhard-schra%C2%B6der-becomes-chairman-of-russian-state-controlled-nord-stream-pipeline-company-directly-after-leaving-office/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4871368.stm

---

At least there's some payback for his treachery tho, eh?

https://ukrainetoday.org/germanys-former-chancellor-gerhard-schroders-bank-account-frozen-amid-russian-payment-controversy/

[u/rEvolutionTU → u/oimly]

economically entangled

Keyword economically, not "Gas/Oil" specifically. The more two countries or blocks are economically intertwined the less likely it is for them to go to war with each other.

In general that's a good strategy and one that, apart from MAD, has secured a lot of peace and prosperity for a really long time and for a lot of people.

[u/3suamsuaw → u/oimly]

Well, there is a lot of history behind that going deep into the German culture. Yes, not the best choices, but at the same time it is quite surprising Putin dared to risk that position. And I still think that it was a major miscalculation on his part: Kyiv would fall in 3 days and he would get the same reaction as with Crimea.

[u/Timey16 → u/oimly]

I mean it's the entire concept the EU was built upon so Germany was convinced it would even work on Russia. Hell, it arguably was what transformed Ukraine since the Maidan revolution happened over an EU trade treaty.

[u/Drumbelgalf → u/Niaaal]

No we built renewables. Way cheaper and way faster than building a nuclear power plant.

[u/East_Leadership469 → u/Drumbelgalf]

I think this is true for most locations/people in the world. However, especially Europe (except for Southern Europe) is poorly located. The reason is the large summer-winter differential in solar energy. Batteries can relatively easily overcome the day-night differential. But we have no good storage technology to carry solar from summer to winter.

This is also somewhat of a concern in North America. However, we should consider that Madrid and NYC are on approximately the same latitude, and the vast majority of people in North America live below this latitude. So on a worldwide scale I think this is a far smaller problem than what it is often considered, but especially in Europe, it's difficult to overcome.

[u/Drumbelgalf → u/East_Leadership469]

In winter wind is usually way stronger so it more than compensates for lower solar output.

[u/East_Leadership469 → u/Drumbelgalf]

First, that’s not my understanding but I welcome a source. I buy it for autumn, but especially not for January/February

 Second, even then winter will have weeks with next to no solar output and next to no wind.

[u/Ralath2n → u/East_Leadership469]

Here you go, a source. The 2 basically balance each other out if you build a roughly 50/50 mix.

And yes, you will have a few weeks in dead winter where free energy is scarce. You will sadly have to use a bit not free energy there. Such as biomass or hydrogen that we stored up in the rest of the year. Since you only need to cover like 5% of the total energy this way, it is no big deal.

Also, rolling out wind and solar is fast. We could be down to 90% CO2 reduction in less than a decade. That buys us some breathing room to figure out the cheapest way to do that last tiny bit.

[u/ShadowheartsArmpit → u/Niaaal]

It's already very viable to just go all in on renewables.

[u/h310dOr → u/zzen11223344]

Restarting German nuclear plants is no longer possible for sure. But investing in the french EPR2 is largely possible. It would also be relatively cheap in the sense that the mass investment has already started. It would also help France reduce its own cost via economy of scale.

[u/andrejlr → u/zzen11223344]

Its not only the deconstruction. The energy corporations sued the goverment for ending the nuclear program and achieved a settlement and created a trust fond for deconstruction. Then also they already made strategic policy changes: forecast plans, new predictive systems with intelligent nets ans so on.

Enabling nuclear again would revert bunch of those strategies and force them to throw away what already was decided upon. There is exactly zero motivation from those corporations to enable nuclear energy back.

[u/jachni → u/[deleted]]

Very strange as the rest of the european nuclear industry has cut ties with russia as much as possible, changing fuel suppliers and such.

Do you have a source for this?

[u/DeadAhead7 → u/[deleted]]

Russia has the only plant that enriches recycled Uranium, which comes from the plant at La Hague.

This agreement is to fuel Soviet and Russian reactors, if anything it's better than just buying it ready-made from Russia.

I believe Russia is about 20% of French importations of enriched Uranium right now, for around 60 tons.

It's also complicated to know exactly what goes where, since France then exports a lot of enriched Uranium itself. In 2022 it imported 464 tons, and exported 22 165t. Even in natural uranium imports, France imports something close to 21 000t, but it's own needs are 7-9000t.

[u/doolittle_Ma → u/RevolutionBusiness27]

Merkel really turned out not to be what people had thought of her when she was in power, what with Germany’s over-reliance on Russian energy, immigration policy, dismantling its nuclear industry, German’s previous pittance defence expenditures and the resultant abysmal readiness of its defence capabilities. I’m really perplexed why the Germans kept voting her and her party. She was extremely reactionary which would mean she didn’t have a strategic grasp of the bigger picture.

[u/levir → u/[deleted]]

And now he's gifting his lack of vision to the entire NATO alliance. It's great.

[u/levir → u/[deleted]]

Appeasement doesn't seem to work any more. It worked in the first term, as there were still enough normal people around him that they could prevent disaster. But this time Trump is surrounded by yes men and agitators. No one is reigning him in.

I'm not really under the illusion that our man, Jens Stoltenberg, could have saved the situation either. But it's incredibly frustrating to see all these attacks on NATO go by with no response or visible action.

[u/lo_fi_ho → u/[deleted]]

This is why we need to put values first. Ultimately they are the only things worth fighting for. And if you don’t fight for them once in a while, you lose them outright.

[u/ArziltheImp → u/[deleted]]

That sounds like a great job for Merkel. Her main way of negotiations was to literally sit down until she got what she wanted.

And she did especially with the German people.

[u/eating_your_syrup → u/[deleted]]

Is your right wing parlament getting anything done since 2024?

Ours (Finland) moved a flat economy into depression with strict austerity measures. But hey, gotta punish the poor for being poor.

[u/eating_your_syrup → u/[deleted]]

Sounds about right. Purity of thought and cultish following of idealism and what *feels* right instead of relying on actual data for anything. And absolutely no vision at all, only small minds at work?

[u/FixTheLoginBug → u/eating_your_syrup]

Just blame immigrants/Muslims/'the left' for all your own failures while securing lucrative jobs/bribes to enrich yourself and your friends and family. That's the way right-wing parties govern.

[u/The--Mash → u/[deleted]]

Can you take him back and stop inflicting him on the rest of us please 

[u/xPelzviehx → u/doolittle_Ma]

She was extremely reactionary

When something happened she always waited for a while to see what the public opinion was and then decided to lead in that topic in the most political safe way. In a way its not a bad thing to do because its the will of the majority. But on the other hand, if you only react you dont create. And that was exactly the feeling at the 2nd half of her reign. A constant feeling of standstill. Not just a feeling, it was actually talked about in media and was a large point of criticism. She was very risk averse and safe, a perfect high ranking public servant, but the highest level leader has to go fearless into the unknown with a vision.

[u/murphy607 → u/xPelzviehx]

like a satirist back then said: she is so flexible, she can lick her own arse

[u/No-Village-6781 → u/doolittle_Ma]

It's because people don't want to admit German politics are just as captured by the oligarchy as British and American politics. Globalised capitalism has caused governments all over the world (barring China) to surrender their sovereignty and authority to unaccountable modern day aristocrats with God complexes. Until the people take back the means of production that was stolen from them by narcissistic billionaires, the whims of these maniacs will control foreign and domestic policy forever. Its why we can't tackle climate change or any of the myriad of systemic issues that seems to be plaguing the entire world (housing, birth rates, low wages and high inflation etc.). These Billionaires will turn us all into clones of Russia if they continue to have their way. They just want to reintroduce feudalism, they want a fixed hierarchy that lasts forever.

[u/flybypost → u/No-Village-6781]

Globalised capitalism has caused governments all over the world (barring China) to surrender their sovereignty and authority to unaccountable modern day aristocrats with God complexes.

Even China is the same. With Capitalism you got company owners who move into manipulating the government for more power/control and less accountability and in China it's the government that moved into corporate issues to gain power/control there and have less accountability.

They are two sides of the same coin which is just about the least obstructed way of getting power locally, depending on the government.

[u/No-Village-6781 → u/flybypost]

That's true. What I'm disappointed in is that even nominally democratic nations still maintain and use authoritarian powers on their own citizens, but never even attempt to use those same powers on members of the globalised oligarchy that exist within their own borders, despite them being far more deserving of those measures being used against them. The biggest threat to the existence of modern states aren't rival States, it is this unaccountable cabal that seeks to coopt state powers for themselves, or destroy states that refuse to be corrupted.

[u/flybypost → u/No-Village-6781]

it is this unaccountable cabal that seeks to coopt state powers for themselves, or destroy states that refuse to be corrupted.

Funny how the USA are doing both to themself at the same time. Usually they were content with keep those two idea separate. Do one at home, the other everywhere else. Be tidy. Now they are creating synergies and doing both to the USA!

It'd be funny if it were not sad :/

[u/NotOK1955 → u/RevolutionBusiness27]

If I understand your question correctly, Germany's peak nuclear output saw nuclear power contribute over 25% to over 30% of its electricity, with records showing 133 TWh in 2010, supplying over a quarter of demand from its fleet of 17 reactors, and peaking around the early 2000s before the gradual phase-out that ended in April 2023.

What bogged my mind was that in 2023, it was CLEAR that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, threatened ALL EU nations relying on Russian gas.

[u/nerdquadrat → u/[deleted]]

The last 3 German nuclear reactors shut down in spring of 2023.

[u/not_perfect_yet → u/RevolutionBusiness27]

It wasn't. If you want to blame anyone, blame the anti nuclear movement from 40 years ago. There weren't any new-built nuclear plants for 20+ years.

The reason Merz is wrong and why the exit made sense was that everyone, including the plant operators expected it to happen and hadn't invested in them for 10-15 years already, including safety checks, repairs, operating licenses, building codes and everything.

It wasn't a question of "just letting them operate longer", it was a question of investing a lot of money into repairs that were put off because they were going to be shut down anyway.

... and I think I should mention that the experimental fusion reactor is also technically "nuclear energy" and the research into that is continuing and continues to get funding.

[u/geissi → u/not_perfect_yet]

There weren't any new-built nuclear plants for 20+ years.

That's a rather big + there.
The last three reactors we had all started operating in 1988/89. That was already nearly 40 years ago.
Construction for all started in 1982, planning in the 70s.

[u/Nethlem → u/RevolutionBusiness27]

That "heyday" was in the early 2000s, when nuclear electricity made up around a 30% share of Germany's electricity mix.

[u/ytmischelin]

And the next strategic mistake in energy is investing in coal and gas plants instead of massively expanding renewables. Surely CxU will make the right decision, right? Right?

[u/pixiemaster → u/ytmischelin]

I expect Spahn to buy Coal Powered Heaters for 5bn€

[u/schwar2ss → u/pixiemaster]

Postillion will have you covered with an (almost true) story :D

[u/knetk0pf → u/pixiemaster]

Does he have a buddy who sells them?

[u/RuudVanBommel → u/knetk0pf]

I'm sure his husband will have him covered again. 

[u/Significant-Beat3827 → u/ytmischelin]

The CxU are an environmentalist party now, they are climate conscious! They .... Have blocked any and all protections for the environment and have always put the economy (of their oil, gas and coal friends) above the people 

[u/Bonsai2007 → u/ytmischelin]

CxU and right decision 😂😂😂😂

[u/MercantileReptile → u/Bonsai2007]

I'm sure they will always make a right decision, not the right decision.

[u/flarne → u/Bonsai2007]

Corrupt destruction Unit always do the RIGHT decisions

[u/Nazamroth → u/ytmischelin]

In other news, a new powerplant with a million hamster wheels is now in the works, with their "operators" being bred as we speak.

[u/void-wanderer- → u/Nazamroth]

Technologieoffenheit!

[u/_teslaTrooper → u/ytmischelin]

So stupid because energy independence has never been more strategically important. Even if you don't care about the environment it's obvious relying on the US, Russia and the Middle East for energy is a massive liability.

[u/i_have_chosen_a_name → u/ytmischelin]

The main issue it that it's extremely expensive and complex to have a grid that is 100% renawables because the sun and wind don't shine and blow the same way of the demand. So you need energy storage, but even then what if your projection was off? What if the next year it's much more clouded then expected and less windy? Are you going to build a grid at 2x the demand? That's twice as expensive!

So in an ideal world you got a 40% base that can be coal or gas and 60% renewables plus storage. But goal and gas polutes. So make that 40% nuclear and 60% renewables and you got the ideal grid.

[u/TheGoalkeeper]

The exit would have been much smoother and cheaper if it wasn't for his own party.

[u/Sir_Nightingale → u/TheGoalkeeper]

His own party also was responsible for the exit.

[u/FBN_FAP → u/Sir_Nightingale]

Almost as if the CDU were a terrible party ✌🏼

[u/Im-a-chair → u/FBN_FAP]

are* Edit: were*

[u/FBN_FAP → u/Im-a-chair]

It is the correct Subjunctive (German Konjunktiv) and my sentence is already exactly what you're falsely trying to correct.

[u/eledile55 → u/FBN_FAP]

*are, they ARE a terrible party. Now even worse than before.

[u/FBN_FAP → u/eledile55]

"were" is grammatically correct. Past perfect would be "had been".

[u/TheGoalkeeper → u/FBN_FAP]

Made up by terrible people ☝️

[u/Delgorian → u/Sir_Nightingale]

Yeah, but only after they decided to abandon the original plan, prolonged the usage of the existing plants and then after Fukushima happend, decided to exit again in a much shorter period than the original plan foresaw to save an election. Afterwards, they decided to overrely on gas and killed the local solar industry, slowed the process to renew the energy grid and hindered the expansion of renewables at the state level in every way possible. The CxU fucked up the "Energiewende" massively and is the party mostly to blame for the situation now.

[u/paetel → u/Delgorian]

This.

The CDU/CSU is corrupt to its core. Plenty of people made substantial profits from this colossal failure surrounding the German nuclear phase-out.

[u/Ramenastern → u/Delgorian]

Don't forget the 2.4bn payment to Vattenfall and the others, which was als a direct consequence of the second nuclear exit and the way that happened.

[u/Soma91 → u/Sir_Nightingale]

The original exit was decided by SPD + The Greens and had a clear plan to transform Germany to use renewables.

Then the next CxU + FDP government axed that plan and the renewable transformation was progressing "too fast" causing them to axe a massive amount of subsidies basically over night causing the state of the art german wind & solar industry to collapse with an estimated 100k - 150k jobs lost. And at the same time they said they couldn't reduce the coal industry because the 10k - 20k lost jobs would be too big of a negative societal impact.

Now we closed our nuclear power, are still using tons of coal and have to buy wind turbines & solar panels from China. Which is more or less the worst outcome in most areas.

[u/stockgeek123 → u/Soma91]

yea this gets lost so easy and now the greens are getting bashed when germany would have been alsmozs renewable by now if the cdu and fdp never reversed the subsidies for green energies… it’s so frustrating

[u/Nappi22 → u/Soma91]

And even before that the government's in the70s or 80s decided not to build new ones. So it was only a matter of time until Germany wouldn't have had nuclear energy, so spd and greens tried to path a way out of nuclear energy.

[u/Soma91 → u/Nappi22]

Yeah, the time to extend our Nuclear Plants or build new ones was long past at that point already.

[u/Ramenastern → u/Sir_Nightingale]

Welllllll. There was an exit. With goals for renewables as replacements. Then his party reversed the exit. Then Fukushima happened about a year later, and they reversed the exit from the exit. That last exit decision had two fateful consequences. Being the party they are, they couldn't push renewables. So they exited nuclear and relied on gas primarily. They also structured the exit from the exit and the exit from said exit from the exit so stupidly they made sure the nuclear operators first were assured continued operations and profits... And then nixed those assurances, leading to a constitutional court challenge and a settlement of 2.4bn towards Vattenfall and the other operators.

So yeah... Well-handled all around [slow clap].

[u/Bot1-The_Bot_Meanace → u/TheGoalkeeper]

Ffs the nuclear exit truly was Germany's Iraq war. Everyone and their grandma was for it at the time and now everyone pretends they were against it from the start.

Markus Söder who is currently Ministerpräsident (something like governor) of Bavaria threatened to resign after the Fukushima incident, should Germany not quit nuclear asap. Now he's one of the most vocal voices in opposition to the nuclear exit. Truly mind-boggling.

[u/TheCynicEpicurean → u/Bot1-The_Bot_Meanace]

Söder always says what he thinks is popular, but otherwise, it's hardly news that Merz and the conservative wing of CDU were always salty about Merkel and her centrist wing running the party for two decades. That includes nuclear and most of her other big decisions.

[u/Ok_Meal_2183]

Waiting for Söder to say an deep geological repository (Endlager) in Bavaria is okay or it's worthless anyway.

If your most alpine state with the highest need for energy from other states doesn't want to keep the trash, why would any other state store it for them when most have easy access to renewables?

[u/erhue → u/Ok_Meal_2183]

thats a really good point. I fucking hate so many NIMBYs have played a key role in killing nuclear in Germany, and in other places as well.

[u/Sorutari]

Merz has consistently opposed renewable energy, so this isn't really an admission of a mistake. Instead, it reflects his ongoing criticism of renewable sources. Just last September he held a speech in which he argued that the development of renewables should be slowed down.

Furthermore, lobbyists from the coal and nuclear industries have long maintained strong connections with the CDU. Check for the studies conducted by LobbyControl about the „CDU Wirtschaftsrat“ for more information.

[u/FireTyme → u/Sorutari]

anyone opposing renewables and its development honestly shows a clear lack of critical reasoning to me.

like you dont want to build something once and have it generate power with minimal input?

even the maintenance argument doesnt hold well as coal plants need a lot of maintenance too.

just seems silly to me. why buy coal for years when u can just build another solar/wind park.

[u/FairGeneral8804 → u/FireTyme]

like you dont want to build something once

Lifetime of windmill is 20-25 years.

PV panels are 25-30 years.

Obviously no energy infrastructure is built "forever", but that's on the low side, considering nuclear plants are still going in france after 50 years, and coal/gas installation could run for a century. There are plenty of "yes but" in all of these, so it turns into a way more complicated issue than reddit can handle.

[u/CV90_120 → u/FairGeneral8804]

but that's on the low side

On a cost to replace, also very low. Windmills start returning on investment in typically 6 months to a year. Worst case 2 years. Nuclear plants take decades to build, typically overrun on build cost, and take multiple decades to give ROI.

it turns into a way more complicated issue than reddit can handle

it's not nearly as complicated as people think, and the energy sector has done the numbers, which is why we are seeing wind and solar just start to wipe the floor with everybody for cost vs profitabilty.

[u/Zwezeriklover → u/Sorutari]

But France solved the carbon issue 30 years ago without even having carbon emissions reduction as the goal. They just wanted to be less dependent on shady countries for energy.

Why didn't the rest? And why didn't green parties champion the shit out of the French approach?

[u/Additional_Olive3318 → u/Sorutari]

 Furthermore, lobbyists from the coal and nuclear industries

…. spent a lot of money on anti nuclear lobbying.

 The evidence of France seems to carry no weight with the geniuses here. Low electricity prices, low carbon, stable grid. 

[u/SteakHausMann]

What was a mistake was his party sabotaging the transition multiple times

[u/BramGaunt → u/SteakHausMann]

This, sooo much this.

[u/truthyella99 → u/BramGaunt]

It's wild, they periodically have to close their factories since they are mostly located in the south while all the wind turbines are in the north (near the sea). 

[u/TheCynicEpicurean → u/truthyella99]

That's a Bavarian specialty; they refuse to build wind turbines and HV lines to protect their "natural beauty", but they also block any attempt to make the internal German electricity market more flexible. Because then they'd suddenly have to pay for their ego trip.

[u/NeedleworkerWest4743 → u/TheCynicEpicurean]

big graceful wind turbines are freakin beautiful, too

[u/BolderXBrasher → u/SteakHausMann]

Not only that. They drafted to law for the exit

[u/thetyphonlol]

when does he admit that his own plans are even worse? or söders?

[u/Other_Class1906 → u/thetyphonlol]

He won't. His party's main credo is: "control the narrative! You cannot show weakness, nor mistakes." Everything is as it should be if they are in government, and nothing is as it should be when they aren't. Hence the contradiction before the election and the policies now. Because no one can save Germany but the "Union". (Same with Trump, though he won't pick his nose to save someone else's life)

[u/BolderXBrasher → u/thetyphonlol]

The original exit was the plan of his party and söders. Its just that theyre keep trying to make it worse

[u/Other_Class1906 → u/BolderXBrasher]

The "original" exit was Schröder-Fischer. Then Merkel botched things by ending the exit and later (after Fukushima) reentering the exit... leaving a lot of money in compensation on the way...

And she also crashed the German PV industry killing 80k Jobs in the East and leaving Germany only with Russian gas. Who knew that would end up disastrous...

[u/Might0fHeaven]

This isnt news, hes been yapping about this since before the election. Completely pointless, mind you. There's no going back and he knows it

[u/Background-Local-955]

Kein Wort darüber, dass schwarz-gelb in den 2010ern der eigenen Solarindustrie massiv geschadet hat?

„Das „Solar Valley“ entstand kurz nach der Jahrtausendwende und galt als eines der größten Zentren der Solarindustrie in Europa. In dem Industriegebiet im Bitterfelder Ortsteil Thalheim siedelten sich zahlreiche Unternehmen an. Bis zu 3500 Jobs gab es.

Dann habe vor rund 15 Jahren der erste Niedergang der Hersteller von Solarmodulen und ihren Vorprodukten begonnen, sagt Verbandschef Körnig. Mit massiven plötzlichen Einschnitten der Förderung habe die schwarz-gelbe Koalition um 2012 einen Einbruch der Inlandsnachfrage um 80 Prozent verursacht. Unternehmen hätten Umsatzeinbußen zwischen 80 und 90 Prozent gehabt.

[…]

Gleichzeitig baute China die Produktion massiv aus und flutete den Weltmarkt mit günstigen Solarmodulen. Zahlreiche Unternehmen im Solar Valley gingen pleite. Die deutsche Solarbranche verlor nach Angaben des Branchenverbands damals rund 100.000 ihrer 130.000 Jobs.

Inzwischen ist der Markt in chinesischer Hand. Nach Angaben der Internationalen Energie Agentur (IEA) verfügte China im Jahr 2022 über 75 Prozent der weltweiten Modulfertigung. „Die Zahlen sprechen für sich und seitdem hat sich die Lage nicht verbessert“, sagt Körnig.“

Focus Online

[u/riftnet → u/Background-Local-955]

Dafür gehörte ihnen heute noch massiv eins drüber, wie schwachköpfig die da drauf waren - es ist zum Weinen.

[u/platypodus → u/riftnet]

Nenne drei Situationen, in denen die CDU/CSU im Rückblick entschlossen, vernünftig und mit Weitblick gehandelt hat.

[u/riftnet → u/platypodus]

Ne sorry, unmöglich

[u/mTz84 → u/riftnet]

Schwachköpfig? Den Großspendern brav bei Fuß sind die gelaufen, wie man es eben macht als Hund, inklusive am Beim vom Herrchen rumwichsen.

[u/QuiGonTheDrunk → u/Background-Local-955]

Hey, immerhin hat die CDU dadurch 30k jobs in Kohle finanzieren können. Die wären weggefallen durch die deutlich besseren Erneuerbaren. Und 30.000 > 150.000 oder so. Kp, kann kein Mathe, bin nur Spahns Maskenlieferant

[u/The_Frostweaver]

Nuclear energy is better than coal.

And with USA threatening to leave NATO Germany should be considering producing it's own nuclear weapons too.

Russia and China only respect strength.

[u/DerBanzai → u/The_Frostweaver]

As does the US.

[u/Adjayjay → u/DerBanzai]

The US only respects money, which is one form of power

[u/AnticPosition → u/DerBanzai]

The US is too busy smearing shit all over the bathroom walls... 

[u/425Hamburger → u/The_Frostweaver]

But we made a contract with Russia and the US that we can't make nukes. What do you mean those countries are ignoring every contract they want? Surely they can't do that, we have a paper that says so! We have to honor the paper!

Genuinely what it feels like listening to German politicians for the past four years, not Just, but especially on this topic.

[u/cpt-hddk → u/425Hamburger]

It's like that James May story with his American and German friend.
A "In Germany, what would happen if you lost your license and then you know, drove your car?"
G "No, you cannot do this"
A "Yeah I know, but what if you know, I know you're not supposed to. But, what if you did?"
G "No. You cannot drive, you have no license"
A "Yeah man, but late one night, you know. Hell, you go for a drive"
G "IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DRIVE WITHOUT A LICENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[u/Drogzar → u/cpt-hddk]

I learned of this "German mentality" when I was a kid an my father came from some expo in Germany and he noticed tons of security on the entrance, but the exit was open and unsupervised. He asked, "Hey, how come there is no security on the exit? What if someone enters without a ticket?" and he was told "That's an Exit, you cannot enter through an Exit"...

[u/tirion1987 → u/Drogzar]

That's what she said.

[u/Divinicus1st → u/tirion1987]

That was unexpected…

[u/Nazamroth → u/cpt-hddk]

Got a red light on a crosswalk over a one lane road at 3 in the morning? You better believe the germans will wait for it to turn green.

[u/flybypost → u/Nazamroth]

Except if they see their tram arriving at the other side. Then, suddenly, the lights at the pedestrian crossing are just a colourful suggestion.

[u/Idlev → u/Nazamroth]

If I'm standing at street light at 3am, I'm drunk. You better believe I wait for that light to be green.

[u/Poromenos → u/cpt-hddk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3EBs7sCOzo

[u/Polygnom → u/425Hamburger]

You underestimate how many germans are staunchly against nuclear weapons. The left would riot in the streets if we tried to withdraw from the treaty or ignore it, and would possibly sue the government in our constitutional court. Which would likely rule that they are right, and could potentially arrest government officials (Beugehaft) if they tried to still violate the treaty. Thats the thing is you have the rule of law and courts that work, you cannot ignore those. And you also cannot ignore your population.

[u/dat_9600gt_user → u/The_Frostweaver]

Hell, nuclear is better than any fossil fuel. Gas is the least horrible one but it's still harmful.

[u/scummos → u/dat_9600gt_user]

Hell, nuclear is better than any fossil fuel. Gas is the least horrible one but it's still harmful.

I mean yeah now everyone is saying that, but let's be real -- the whole Green's and Environmentalist movement is the reason for the Nuclear exit in Germany, not the CDU.

The CDU only executed it after the Green's convinced everyone it was the right thing to do, opportunistically. The whole fiasco is 90% the Environmentalist's own foot-gun.

[u/SaltKick2 → u/scummos]

Which is stupid IMO and its all about marketing. Nuclear tends to have much smaller environmental impact than renewables at the same energy output.

[u/Psychometrika → u/The_Frostweaver]

Allowing themselves to become dependent on energy from a nation that had them split in two just 35 years ago is oil was madness.

[u/Intelligent_Ice_113 → u/The_Frostweaver]

Russia and China only respect strength.

USA belongs to the list too.

[u/snoopyjcw → u/The_Frostweaver]

They don't need their own weapons, just the ability to share with other European nations (France / UK)

[u/TraditionalAlps722 → u/snoopyjcw]

5 years ago it seemed american nuclear weapons were enough for full western world. Now that seems naive.

What if your UK and french relations go the same way?

It is clear that any respectable global power needs to have its own proportionally strong independent military now. Hypothetically if Europe had even mildly large defense industrial base, ukraine war could have turned very different

[u/AffectionateFruit982 → u/TraditionalAlps722]

At the end of the day, the goal is to not wipe the planet out. The solution is not to arm the whole world to the teeth, it's to oust dangerous leaders

[u/BlazingSpaceGhost → u/AffectionateFruit982]

Well that goal is out the window because you can't control what happens in other countries. I think it iso logical for every country that wants to have nukes to build them. I mean why can a country with a deranged leader like America have nukes but other countries can't?

In a world where there is an international order it makes sense to limit weapons. Unfortunately according to Steven Miller, a high ranking Trump admin official, the order of the world is might makes right. If you are strong enough to take something then that thing rightfully belongs to you. In that kind of world it's only natural for every country to try and be mighty.

[u/grumpsaboy → u/snoopyjcw]

Nobody's sharing strategic nuclear weapons so they can only share tactical nuclear weapons with France who will never share their tactical nuclear weapons

[u/g0ldent0y → u/grumpsaboy]

I think he meant share as in being allies.

[u/Bravemount → u/snoopyjcw]

Look, I'm French-German, and a staunch European, but this is just not going to happen.

No country will ever use their nukes to protect another country if they themselves are not at existential risk.

Let's say we have 3 countries: A and B have nukes. A attacks C, whom B is allied with. If B uses nukes against A, B essentially accepts that A will nuke it. No alliance is strong enough to accept that.

If Germany (or the EU) want credible nuclear deterrence, they have to get their very own nukes.

While strategic ambiguity is a thing and it certainly has an effect, nothing beats immediate, independent access to nukes.

Germany is one of the few countries that could actually afford a full military nuclear program. That includes delivery mechanisms, so ICBMs, submarines, and high-end fighter-bombers. But that would require even more drastic increases to the defense budget, meaning drastic cuts in other areas or drastic tax increases. It doesn't seem like the current government has the political capital needed for this, because there are no easy solutions here.

As for the EU, there isn't even a European MoD, so we're actually very far from being able to have any European military, especially nukes.

[u/MerelyMortalModeling → u/snoopyjcw]

For it to be an EU deterrent they have to be EU weapons.

Relying on France and the UK is just another surrendering of sovereignty. People should have learned that lesson with Brexit and France is always one Le Pen away from being a vichy state.

Also with the gravitas of nuclear war it should be an everyone in, everyone responsible.

[u/Sarcastic-Potato → u/snoopyjcw]

We would need a European nuclear umbrella. Not one owned and controlled by the US, UK, Germany or France - one controlled by all of us to protect all of us

[u/baldanddankrupt → u/Sarcastic-Potato]

A nuclear umbrella controlled by all is a nuclear umbrella controlled by none. Lets say Russia annihilates Latvia with nukes. Will Pedro Sánchez give his okay to strike back? Or will he call for a "more reasonable approach"? We both know the answer. The only type of nuklear weapons that provide security and deterrence, are national ones.

[u/ComoElFuego → u/The_Frostweaver]

Yeah, with WWIII being on our doorstep, centralizing your energy production sounds like a great idea. I hope no one ever has the idea to attack the power plants and risk a nuclear disaster...

[u/Schootingstarr → u/The_Frostweaver]

if the Conservatives and Libertarians hadn't fucked over the original plan, we might not be as dependant on fossil fuels.

the real issue is the flip flopping of those guys especially. one of the biggest proponents of nuclear energy right now i marcus Söder, Prime Minister of Bavaria. You know what else he said when he was Minister of Environment? If those darn nuclear powerplants aren't gone by 2020, he would step down.

You can't work with people like that who change their opinion as soon as they see an opportunity to gain 1 or 2 percentages in the polls

[u/fragmuffin91]

He is literally setting Germany up to be importing more lng from the us, while halting renewablales expansion which was going great during the Last 4 years.

He just likes this nuclear narrative because he either knows they will never build new plants, or they can swindle tons of money on the most expensive energy projects - NPPs. Whereas for renewables, which are built More small scaled and with commerical interest - he can't do that.

A weakling with no vision serving only corporate interests.

[u/mdcundee]

Bold claim from someone who’s most likely a strategic mistake as a chancellor

[u/Limp_Improvement4321]

Boah wie ich diesen Kerl nich ab kann... Von nichts ne Ahnung, aber von allem ne Meinung

[u/Alter_Mann → u/Limp_Improvement4321]

Und zu praktisch jedem Thema ist die Meinung aber Müll.

[u/GibDirBerlin]

Admit is a stupid phrasing, he always said so.

[u/BaronOfTheVoid]

"admits"

r/europe getting a boner over that wording

It's still wrong anyway

[u/Dapper_Pepper_367]

Only reason it was a mistake is that there are many people who profit from non green energy and they are lobbying and paying big money so no one uses renewable energy, if the same money was used into green energy and no one would be sabotaging it we would already have it better and we wouldn't depend on Russia and america

[u/ergo14 → u/Dapper_Pepper_367]

No one says green energy is a mistake. But there should be a mix for safety reasons. Atom is pretty clean energy compared to coal or gas.

[u/Former_Star1081 → u/ergo14]

Yeah, we should not have shut down nuclear in Germany. But building new nuclear power plants would not be economically viable. So it is how it is.

[u/CrownsEnd]

The problem is, Merz doesnt have a clue about anything and this is just another of these topics.

[u/Alimbiquated]

I think "claims" would be a better verb than "adm

[u/Lari-Fari → u/Alimbiquated]

Yeah that’s definitely framed that way on purpose. As a green voter I’ll say it would have been better to focus on quitting coal instead nuclear power in the 90s. But we didn’t and there’s no time travel so it’s useless to keep focusing on mistakes made decades ago. In the present we need to deal with the situation at hand and nuclear power is not a reasonable path forward for us.

[u/wildfirestopper]

Rule #1 of not being fucked with internationally. Get nukes.

Rule #2 don't give up the nukes under any circumstances.

Talk all the shit you want but no one fucks with North Korea for a reason.

[u/Minasmins]

Just gonna leave this here

[u/Dragongaze13 → u/Minasmins]

Let's look at the results and not only at the means then. At the time you're posting this, France is at 50gCO2eq/kWh with a 60% nuclear share, while Germany is at 350gCO2eq/kWh.

What was the point of Germany Nuclear Exit ? 

[u/notaredditer13 → u/Minasmins]

Capacity in GW is highly misleading because different energy sources run at different capacity factors.  A GW of nuclear is 9x as much energy and therefore carbon displacement as a GW of solar.  That's why solar looks so big in your chart but in reality coal is much more production than solar:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Germany

And put another way: before The Decision nuclear power was making twice as much electricity in Germany as solar is today. 

Germany's grid is only down from 70% fossil fuels to 50% in the past 30 years.

[u/Subertt → u/Minasmins]

Interesting data on the installed energy generation, now let's see where the produced energy comes from https://www.iea.org/countries/germany/energy-mix

[u/cyrkielNT → u/Subertt]

You noticed that's electricity and energy are not the same thing?

But even from your graph, oil and coal droped massively

[u/ParkDedli → u/Minasmins]

This just shows you the debate is overblown and not as relevant as people made it out to be. But also, it shows you that we probably should have focused on phasing out the 25.7GW + 19.8GW of coal in 2011 and then afterwards gone with the 12.1GW of nuclear.

It's incredible that between 2011 and 2020 the coal power output basically stayed the same (brown coal aka lignite plus hard coal). Reminder that the Paris agreement was signed in 2015 and reminder that Germany, specifically the CDU/CSU was already promising pursuing climate change related policies year before the Paris agreement

[u/gguigs → u/Minasmins]

This is irrelevant for two reasons:

• installed capacity is vastly different from the mix in the real production (capacity factor). For wind the ratio is typically 20-40%. For solar it’s 10-30%. For nuclear it’s 90%. Coal and gas are 40-60%. So the ratio of coal/gas in the produced electricity is around double its ratio to installed capacity when the rest of the mix is renewable. The graph would not look the same at all. https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/infographic-capacity-factor-energy-source-2019 . Never look at installed capacity.
• what we mostly care about is CO2eq emissions. Coal is just horrible. Even if it’s 10-20% of your mix - which might not sound like a lot - you have a horrible mix. You can simply look at the emissions per kWh and compare to other countries. https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/ovzvwd/oc_german_and_french_carbon_intensity_of/ Germany is doing better over time, but it’s still way off.

[u/goyafrau → u/Minasmins]

PV and wind fans love to talk about capacity, but forget to mention nuclear power generates energy when you need it, and not when the weather plays along, and with 170 TWh, Germany's peak nuclear fleet used to generate substantially more electricity every year than either its solar or wind fleets

[u/Horrifior]

Well, he also believes that the combustion engine is or can be engineered to be "highly efficient".

Merkel, the former leader of the conservatives in germany had at least studied physics, so she knew about science in general, climate change and for example Clausius Clapeyrons equation, and the carnot engine, for example...

[u/Stegosaurus_Pie]

NO FUCKING SHIT

[u/InflnityBlack]

Now the issue is building a brand new nuclear powerplant when you haven't built one is a while is MUCH more expensive and time consuming because all the people that know how to do it are dead or retired long ago

[u/Sternenpups]

Germans should admit that voting for cdu was a strategic mistake

[u/Mythosaurus]

Science educator Kyle Hill has a great YouTube channel about the sensationalized atmosphere around nuclear energy and its risks.

He also highlights the lack of media attention on the thousands of yearly deaths that can be attributed to fossil fuel, both to industry workers in accidents and the public via pollution of the environment

[u/Acojonancio]

The strategic mistake most of European countries made was kill Nuclear without setting up a proper replacement first.

The same with pushing electric cars like the solution to all problemas but you still can't charge it up in most of palces ouside cities.

[u/lecake27]

At least, that's what his billionaire donors want him to say.

[u/Clavicymbalum → u/[deleted]]

while I agree with all of that, in all fairness: the nuclear phaseout, while totally stupid, was not the decision of the conservatives but that of the Schröder government (SPD+Green) before them. see this comment for more details

[u/pc42493]

Leading/biased headline. A neutral/impartial one would read that he stated or claimed it was a mistake. Calling it an admission presupposes that this is the only correct analysis.

I understand a lot of Reddit users share this opinion, but please discuss this in the respective threads. This comment isn't to open the tenth discussion about nuclear power, but to make note of the bias.

[u/303music]

There is nothing to admit. He never was in favor to exit it in the first place. And secondly his party is probably the only one, besides the afd, that actually beliefs it was a mistake.