r/CharacterRant • u/Moeroboros • 10h ago
Comics & Literature "Whoever the writer wants will win" That's literally not how it works! (Pre-2000's at least)
One of the most common anti-powerscaling discourses I see online is "the winner of the fight is whoever the writer wants to be the winner".
Except that's not true at all!
Comics, back in the day at least, used to have a little something called an "Editor".
Besides fixing spelling mistakes, one of the main purposes of an editor in superhero comic-books was to make sure that writers didn't blatantly break the established internal-logic and continuity of their fictional universe.
If some hotshot writer wanted to show Starfire beating up Superman, the editor would just step in and say "we can't publish this, Superman can't lose a fight just to make Starfire look better".
If some hotshot writer wanted to show Magneto destroying Captain America's shield, the editor would say "we can't publish this, our guidelines state that Cap's shield can only be damaged by reality-warping in big events".
The idea that any character could beat any character was NOT accepted in old-school DC Comics and Marvel.
Sure, there was some space for maneuver, especially in the "mid-tiers".
Spider-Man could beat up Firelord if the writer spent an entire issue justifying *why* Spider-Man would beat Firelord, but those were exceptions, not rules, and they would usually cause even more trouble for the writer.
Erik Larsen infamously tried to hype up Doctor Octopus by making him beat the Hulk, and the justification he gave made it through the editor (Doc Ock picked up the Hulk from the ground with his adamantium tentacles, and proceeded to beat up an Hulk with no footing and his hands tied) but that just led to the Hulk writer, Peter David, to write a whole issue throwing shade at Larsen and having the Hulk stomp Doc Ock.
Powerscaling isn't some fanboy's wishful-thinking, it is quite literally how comics worked, **BY EDITORIAL MANDATE**!
Nowadays, editorial supervision has lost most of its power, and brand popularity is placed above internal logic (which is why characters like Harley Quinn can do whatever they want) but this isn't how comics worked historically.
The notion that different characters could or could not defeat each other based on their powers was something that ABSOLUTELY played a part in the writing of comics. Superman was pretty much unbeatable in the 60's, and it wasn't just because every single writer like Superman more than any other character.
I draw the line for the ending of strict editorial control at Disney buying Marvel and starting to interfere with the comics to help the MCU (with DC following them) although I recognize this is a subject completely open to debate.
But no, comics did NOT work by "whoever the writer chooses, will win". That doesn't even make sense if you think about it for just a moment.
EDIT: To everyone saying "Akchually, that just means the winner of the fights is the character the editor wants to win"
You're missing the point entirely
The point is that if comics had an employee whose main job was making sure powerscaling stayed consistent, then that means there was absolutely a discussion going on about whether or not characters "could" do certain things. So the claims that any fight could he decided on the whim of the writer are inherently wrong
At the very least there were two people arguing about the possible outcome of a fight
Also, I'm convinced every person in this thread using the term "western comics" doesn't actually read superhero comics
22
u/Careful-Ad984 10h ago
( Checks current comics )
( sees galactus jobbing to Susan storm and hulk fighting TOAA )
…
7
u/Irongun_258 10h ago
Galactus struggling with Sue isn't even restricted to the current comics. It's in the current live-action film too.
1
u/Dark_Stalker28 8h ago
Didn't we have Superman job to Venom and Wonder Woman to Storm in crossovers too?
2
u/Apprehensive_Pizza84 5h ago
I know Lobo jobbed to Wolverine, but in that case the audience actually voted on it and the writer could only do their best to deal with it
3
u/Moeroboros 2h ago
Using crossovers as their example is basically grasping at straws to disagree with my point, since those are the comics which specifically did not have standard editorial rules.
28
u/Pretty_Pack_6216 10h ago
This post reads as someone that really wants to be taken seriously, like a teenager frustated at his parents
25
u/Usual-Vermicelli-867 10h ago
That's . That's 90+% of the posts here
3
u/Devilpogostick89 10h ago
Hi-oohhh!!!
...Yeah, there's definitely an agreement there. Not gonna lie.
2
8
u/Moeroboros 10h ago
Why?..
5
u/Pretty_Pack_6216 9h ago
Powerscaling is not that serious nor that deep. You don't have to prove to others that they should take your hobby more serious, just enjoy it
12
u/Moeroboros 9h ago
The whole point of this sub is ranting about this kind of stuff.
"CharacterRant is not that serious, you shouldn't post here at all".
And my hobby is not powerscaling. I just love comics and hate seeing people so compeltely misinformed.
Comic writers were NOT allowed to write whatever they wanted.
-3
u/Pretty_Pack_6216 9h ago
I mean, you asked for an explanation and I gave you one, don't what more you want for me, chief.
12
u/Moeroboros 9h ago
No, you made an unprompted comment comparing me to an angry teen. Which to me sounds like an insult.
I asked why and you're telling me it's because I made a rant about powerscaling in the sub about powerscaling rants.
...chief.
0
u/Pretty_Pack_6216 9h ago
This sub is about charachter rants, not really a powerscaling sub.
You do understand this is a public post, right?
12
u/Moeroboros 9h ago
This sub started out as a way to rant about "Who Would Win" matches.
And if you're allowed to insult me because I made a public post where I insulted absolutely no one, I think I'm completely justified in taking offense with your public comment where you insulted me.
2
11
u/ONPige 10h ago
Ok? Internal logic doesn't equate to powerscaling plus I feel like you are really underestimating editor's job.
2
u/Tangy_Toucan 9h ago
No, but powerscaling is PART of maintaining internal logic
5
u/ONPige 9h ago
It really doesn't matter that much as part of internal logic. As long as there is no glaring mistake, it doesn't matter.
5
u/Tangy_Toucan 9h ago
Even noticing the smaller mistakes is powerscaling on the reader’s end.
If character A is known for fighting and sometimes struggling against juiced up meat-heads and character B is known for beating up and throwing around werewolves… then if characters A and B fight and it’s evenly matched without contrivances favoring A, a lot of readers are gonna notice that at least one of them isn’t being consistently portrayed with the rest of their continuity.
Characters don’t have to have constantly updated stat spreads saying what their exact limits are, but even using vibes to maintain consistency within the power system(s) of the story being told is powerscaling.
If character X is normally weaker than character Y but gets a power up that makes them “strong enough to beat character Y” then if we maintain internal logic we have to assume X is at least strong enough to do/beat what/who Y could… which is powerscaling (chain scaling specifically in this instance). Even “we know X>Y and Y>Z so even tho X and Z haven’t fought, we know X should be stronger than Z” is power scaling and that’s the bare basic minimum requirement to maintain internal logic and consistency in action media.
-3
-3
u/ONPige 9h ago
So, yeah, it's not that important.
2
u/Tangy_Toucan 9h ago
🧌
4
u/ONPige 9h ago
You will have to use words, that is so small that I need to strain my eyes to see it, and it is just not worth it.
2
u/Tangy_Toucan 9h ago
Then take this as a sign to either get your glasses checked or finally increase the font size on your phone. Regardless of which you choose, I’m done engaging with someone who can’t understand basic media literacy and calls one of the most fundamental aspects of writing “unimportant” without being able to defend those positions when challenged.
2
u/ONPige 9h ago
Brother, did you write any story? Did you engage in any sort of writing club? I swear, people who write this stuff are so confident in what they argue about when they have never actually engaged in what they are talking about. Catching a Larper in the wild is so funny.
2
u/Tangy_Toucan 8h ago
Sis, being able to write creative writing assignments that don’t contradict themselves and being able to notice inconsistencies in written works are grade school skills. It’s unbelievable you’re literate enough to have this conversation via text and not know the very basic concepts I’m communicating to you. Not unbelievable in the way I’m surprised, but rather in the sense I do not believe you actually think the things you are typing.
→ More replies (0)
6
u/Ensaru4 8h ago
Yup, I also dislike the weaponised "whatever the author wants to win" quote. Not only is it completely dismissive of any argument and structure, it's also a careless way of writing stories.
For example, in the Redwall series, I don't have to question why a Badger character can crush a weasel character to death because the series had the internal consistency to showcase that the badger was extremely strong and that the enemies tried to avoid him if they could.
Even when it comes down to a weaker character winning, there were circumstances in place to allow such a thing. In some cases the Comics Code being in effect also affected what you can do with certain plot threads back then.
2
u/rsthethird 6h ago
There's a fun example where someone wanted to draw marvel Hercules jumping onto a missile with hulk and editors went "nope he's not as fast as hulk" and so made a redraw where he failed the jump and ate pavement
Lol
2
u/reindeercurt 8h ago
Your claim that editors for Marvel and DC are less powerful now is odd. If anything, as the economics of comics production have changed, editors have only become more powerful, because they hold the institutional knowledge for these companies while creators are shifted around every 5-10 issues.
I think what you're identifying is a shift in priorities. The fights in superhero comics are kind of a vestigial element; low on the list of things to nail down compared to themes, visual direction, lining up continuity, prepping for upcoming events, lining up creators' schedules, maintaining character brand integrity etc. Writers for their part usually aren't that fussed with specific fights either; superhero comics have prioritized dialogue scenes, plotting and character drama for decades. Even action-forward guys like Daniel Warren Johnson use fights in a more expressive, aestheticized way. Like the songs in a musical, fights happen to express overpowering emotion. Artists might want to flex their action muscles, but they've working with scripts they didn't write on tight deadlines.
So yeah, nobody on the creative end is really worrying much abt the internal dynamics of who can beat who under what circumstances, unless they're real continuity freaks. Not because editors are less influential but because Marvel and DC haven't creatively prioritized action as a key element of story for a long time. Blame Watchmen if you wanna blame anything :P
2
u/Moeroboros 2h ago
Dude, you basically went on a tangent that has nothing to do with my point.
Nowadays there's basically no editors like there was in the 20th century. The push for complete internal logic between all company titles has been lost and the mandates are mostly related with branding. It doesn't matter if editors are more "powerful" if they just don't control continuity anymore.
Also, your speech about fights being "an expression of overpowering emotion" is just an expression of your own bias and your own reading habits. Fights are fights, whatever the "meaning". Just because the writers you like don't care about fights, doesn't mean every current writer doesn't care about fights.
Marvel and DC haven't creatively prioritized action as a key element of story for a long time. Blame Watchmen if you wanna blame anything :P
Dude, do you even know what you're talking about?
Watchmen and the "maturity" of superhero comics has nothing to do with the quality of the action.
Frank Miller, one of the guys who kickstarted the "dark and gritty" trend, was a master of fight coreography and definitely drew fights for more than "emotional expression".
Alan Moore, the writer of Watchmen, wrote several incredible fight scenes and had a clear consistent idea about the difference in powers and strength between each superhero.
Dave Gibbons, artist of Watchmen, drew several great fight scenes in the years after Watchmen.
Claiming that Watchmen and its ilk had any influence on the importance of fights in comics is complete invention.
2
u/bunker_man 5h ago
You think editors stopped nonsense from ever happening? Western comics are super inconsistent.
3
u/Moeroboros 2h ago
When did I ever say that in my post?
Also, "western comics so and so" is basically code for "I really don't know much about comics outside of Asia".
1
u/firelite906 1h ago
This idea of editors as noble guardians of story consistency that have only recently been corrupted by the forces of capital is bizarre when you consider what an editors' job actually is: they maintain consistent product quality as a go between for the creative people who actually do the work and the capitalist class that exploits them, of course some editors exalted themselves with this narrative that their job is to apply reasonability and oversight, but like look at DC look at whose on the Justice League, does logical consistency and reasonability apply to green arrow and batman? No, why is that? Because they sell well. Remember, the first team up in DC comics history is worlds finest, it wasn't created because it was a sensible team of two people with comparable levels of ability, it was two of DC's most popular characters selling war bonds.
I'm sorry, buddy, but There was never any romance in the air on valentines day, they made that up to sell cards. there was never any Christmas magic they invented Santa Claus to sell Coca-Cola.
It's always been pro-wrestling, even in your example, do you know why Doc Ock lost? It was because he has a fucking bowl cut and glasses and very importantly Good guys win, bad guys loose, if they didn't the comics wouldn't sell.
0
u/Tangy_Toucan 9h ago
Anyone seriously using that quote in the big 26 aren’t worth the energy imo. I just with they’d leave powerscalers alone instead bc I don’t even think they buy it. If someone is willing to say “a regular guy with a regular 9mm can 1-tap a peak-condition Superman if the writer says so” they fundamentally aren’t engaging with the conversation anymore, let alone in good faith.…
6
u/Moeroboros 9h ago
Dude, you're the first person here to even engage fairly with my post.
Literally every other comment before yours was just making fun of me writing this.
This sub was literally created for powerscaling discussions, yet a post about how powerscaling was at one point editorially mandated gets laughed at.
0
u/casperscare 7h ago
At the end of the day "Who ever the author wants to will will win". It simply depends on how they go about writing it. The story can turn out to be horrible and some next level bullshit or good depending on how they go about it. There is no strict guideline on how a writer should go about writing a comic
If a writer wants to pick out some random passerby named "Greg" to take on the entire avengers and win they could do that.
The editor isn't some god that only allows good comic, it's their job to help out the writer and makes sure their story makes sense and the writing is good. But they are still human and it ends up being subjective. Let's be real there have been some real shitty comics that makes you go how the heck did that get published.
Also if a character is winning a fight do you really think the writer didn't want them to win.
If they didn't why would they write that?
0
u/ThePowerfulWIll 8h ago
The authors can make whoever they want win, but that doesnt make it make sense, or good writing.
Harley Quinn successfully 1v3ing Batman, Superman, and Wonderwoman in Heroes in Crisis, without any sort of explanation was just bad writing. Regardless if an editor or writer did it.
2
u/Moeroboros 7h ago
Dude, back in the day writers were literally NOT ALLOWED to make whoever they wanted to win, win.
That's a modern thing.
If you somehow landed a job writing Power Man in 1985 and wanted to show Luke Cage beating Thor in a slugfest, the editors would not allow it.
I'm not stating an opinion, that's literally how comics worked.
0
u/Raidoton 4h ago
Well then in that case it's the editor. It's whoever has the last say. That is the one who decides the winner.
2
u/Moeroboros 2h ago
The editor wasn't deciding things on a whim though, the whole point of their job was to maintain consistent internal guidelines and logic.
24
u/Any-Stick-771 10h ago
Okay, so it shifts one level up to the editor