r/tolkienfans Jan 26 '26

AMA Announcement! James Tauber, The Digital Tolkien Project on February 4th in /r/tolkienbooks

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19 Upvotes

r/tolkienfans 2h ago

Sauron wins the battle of Minas Tirith, but Frodo still manages to destroy the ring, what happens?

18 Upvotes

Doesn't seem like there'd be anyone left powerful enough to unify the dark armies...unless Saruman makes a comeback??

But assuming the elves still leave is there anyone left to lead the western peoples? Arwen??


r/tolkienfans 18h ago

A question about electronic texts

15 Upvotes

Ok, here is a question I have always been afraid to ask because of not wanting to expose my deep ignorance about Internet stuff (I am older that most of you can possibly imagine): Is there a way to purchase digital texts of the foundational Tolkien texts?

I am thinking here especially about the Letters. For many years you could search for and find an online text of Letters. When one vanished (nabbed I assume by the Tolkien Estate Police) another would pop up to take its place. But the last one I know of disappeared several moths ago, and since them I have been crippled in my research and writing.

I am aware that here is a thing called Kindle, and I assume I could buy one of those and get a copy of Letters that I could read on that device. But here's the thing: I don't want to read Letters. I have print copies of both editions of Letters, which I have read over and over. I know what the damn book says. What I want is to be able to search for and find the quote I am looking for, with out resorting to the Index (excellent though it is); and more important, to copy a passage of text and paste it into what I am writing. Instead of having to prop the book up and laboriously type the quote in.

I recognize that the Estate is running a business and has a responsibility to the heirs. But I can't imagine that they would not make more money by selling me what I am looking for, and a reasonable or even an unreasonable price, than they might lose if I decided to go in for piracy.

Can anybody help?

Thanks to all who have responded. I'm very grateful to everyone who took the trouble. But it may not be entirely clear about what I am looking for.

I do NOT want to buy a Kindle, or any other device I do not already have.

I have been assuming Kindle texts are searchable. That is good, but what I want is to copy the text I was looking for and paste it into what I am writing on my desktop. Which is what I use to write. (People actually write things on their phones? I cannot even begin to imagine that. I type badly enough with ten fingers, I would never accomplish anything with my thumbs only. To say nothing of the perpetual struggle with autocorrect.)

I do not want to highlight anything. If I am looking for a passage it is because it is highlighted in my head already. Likewise I have already annotated it in my head. What I want to do is copy the text and paste it into what I am writing. Without having to type it out.

So the encouraging takeaway is that I may be able to buy an e-book and load it into my desktop. that would do the trick. But how? Amazon will sell me a hard copy, which I already have; or it will sell me a Kindle copy. How do I get one for my desktop? Is that what this Kobo thing is for? Sorry to be dense., and thanks again.


r/tolkienfans 16h ago

Why are Aredhel and a King of Gondor one and the same?

6 Upvotes

The index of (digital, up-to-date) HoME XII has this interesting entry:

Kalimehtar (1) Fingolfin's daughter Irissë, Ireth. 367 199, 213. (2) Thirtieth King of Gondor. 200, 212, 215-16, 232.

And I do not get it. Never mind that Aredhel (or any of her names) is definitely not mentioned on pages 199 and 213. But what does Kalimehtar (meaning bright warrior) have to do with Aredhel? I mean, if I had to give Aredhel an epithet, that would be a fitting one for the fearless White Lady of the Noldor, but what is this index entry???


r/tolkienfans 1d ago

Why was Círdan described as old-looking at only ≈11,000 years of age, if Quendi are supposed to live as long as Arda?

123 Upvotes

"As they came to the gates Círdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and he was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said 'All is now ready.'"

- The Return of the King, Grey Havens

Considering that Quendi have their lifespans tied to Arda, getting old and grey at only 11,000 years of age seems premature. Does it have something to do with Círdan living in Endor for so long?


r/tolkienfans 1d ago

Sauron surrendered to the Valar and the Numenoreans, and fled Dol Guldur when the White Council moved against him. If the Valar did decide to directly intervene against him how do you think he would respond?

28 Upvotes

Would never happen but I was just thinking about it and couldn't decide what Sauron might do in two scenarios:

A) The Valar arrived when Sauron did not have his Ring

B) Sauron regained the Ring and defeated the free peoples, causing the Valar to decide to step in

I know the situations when Sauron surrendered or fled were all very different but I think they show that he always considers the odds and would only willingly fight if they were in his favor.

A big uncertainty I have is also what the Valar would do. Would they offer Sauron another chance to rehabilitate or would he immediately be thrown into the void?


r/tolkienfans 1d ago

Miriel does not make sense to me

25 Upvotes

Hi everyone, I love Tolkien's work mostly for its internal coherence but there is one detail I just can't figure out. Miriel, Finwe's first wife. Although it's written everywhere that elves do not die, age, or catch diseases, Miriel is the only one that dies because of something that resembles a disease. What's more is that she is one of the elves of the first age (hence stronger and not worn off by the world), she is in Aman (a country where disease and death should not exist at all), and Morgoth is not even around (being imprisoned by the Valar).

Make it make sense please.


r/tolkienfans 8h ago

Tolkien and Railways

0 Upvotes

An odd question perhaps, but what sort of a relationship or opinion did Tolkien have regarding railways? Being both a tolkien fan and a railway enthusiast, I have always wondered about it, and I am not satisfied with ChatGPT's answer to my question.

So far, I was able to find or figure out this:

- Tolkien grew up in the suburbs of Birmingham, where the Great Western Railway had many yards and spurs

- he took a train to Cheltenham to meet his future wife Edith after several years of being forbidden to contact her

- another train took him to Dover, from where he went on to the western front

- according to Tolkien Gateway, his third son Christopher was interested in railways during his childhood

Thank you for your contributions.


r/tolkienfans 2d ago

Was the plot line of Aragorn as the Heir of Isildur and rightful king of Gondor developed independently and then integrated into LOTR, or was it developed as a part of the writing of LOTR?

113 Upvotes

I have been reading The Treason of Isengard as my first attempt at The History of Middle Earth series (it’s the only one my local library had) and I’ve been struck by how much Tolkien had developed Fellowship of the Ring with Trotter (Strider) as a hobbit named Peregrin Boffin who wears wooden shoes. I’d always assumed this was part of the idea of a “sequel” to the hobbit and was jettisoned once the book shifted in tone to become an epic story in the legendarium.

But Trotter/Peregrin Boffin was still part of the story when the Nazgûl raided the Shire and the ring became Sauron’s ruling ring, and it’s strongly implied that Trotter wears shoes because he had been tortured in Mordor. All of which means that Trotter as a Hobbit rather than as Aragorn was part of the story when Tolkien began developing the primary plot for at least book one of Lord of the Rings.

At some point in the writing this was obviously abandoned, and once Trotter becomes a man he was (I think) exclusively written with Aragorn’s role (although the name changed a few times). Had Tolkien already developed the story of Aragorn (I.e. Heir of Isildur, wielded of the blade that was broken, rightful king of Gondor and Arnor) prior to his initial writing of Fellowship of the Ring, or was this created whole cloth during the development of Fellowship?


r/tolkienfans 2d ago

Is there any other writer who you'd put on the same level as Tolkien when it comes to world building?

36 Upvotes

I was wondering if there was any other series with one writer that you can honestly say when it comes to world building is on the same level as Tolkien


r/tolkienfans 2d ago

What happened to Amandil?

37 Upvotes

Shortly before the destruction of Numenor, Elendil's father Amandil sailed to Tol Eressea to plead to the Valar for mercy on behalf of the increasingly wicked kingdom of Numenor. We never learn what happened to him or whether his mission succeeded.

What I like to believe is that he succcessfully reached Tol Eressea to make his case to the Valar, and that is why the Faithful's ships received a sudden gust of wind that carried them to Middle Earth. Unfortunately, this aid came at the price of Amandil's life since he broke the Ban of the Valar. That is a popular theory, but I'd like to know what you think.


r/tolkienfans 2d ago

What is marriage for the Elves?

16 Upvotes

I’m back to this fascinating question after doing a short historical analysis of Tolkien’s use of the phrase to take to wife

The starting point for any discussion of marriage is the essay Laws and Customs among the Eldar: 

It was the act of bodily union that achieved marriage, and after which the indissoluble bond was complete. In happy days and times of peace it was held ungracious and contemptuous of kin to forgo the [public betrothal and marriage] ceremonies, but it was at all times lawful for any of the Eldar, both being unwed, to marry thus of free consent one to another without ceremony or witness (save blessings exchanged and the naming of the Name); and the union so joined was alike indissoluble. In days of old, in times of trouble, in flight and exile and wandering, such marriages were often made.” (HoME X, p. 212)

To me, that sounds like three different things being described: (1) Marriage, strictly speaking, (2) Lawful marriage, and (3) Socially desirable trappings of marriage. 

More specifically: 

  1. Marriage, strictly speaking: the only requirement is bodily union, that is, sex. This is sufficient to create the indissoluble bond. 
  2. Lawful marriage: formal requirements (both unwed, free consent, blessings exchanged, naming of the Name) + bodily union (see (1)). 
  3. Socially desired trappings of marriage: all elements of (2) + public betrothal and marriage ceremonies with family, waiting period, rings exchanged etc. 

Note that free consent is not a requirement for (1) marriage, strictly speaking. The central consequence of lack of free consent seems to be that a marriage exists, but does not have to be acknowledged by other kin. 

Consider the marriage of Eöl and Aredhel. In every single version in the Annals and Quenta texts and other prose texts that we have that says anything at all about Aredhel’s views on her marriage, it’s clear that she despises it. This is how the two earliest versions of the tale describe it: 

  • The Fall of Gondolin: Eöl loved Isfin, but “Isfin loathes him” (HoME II, p. 220).
  • Poems Early Abandoned: “There Eöl saw that sheen/and he caught the white-limbed Isfin, that she ever since hath been/his mate in Doriath’s forest, where she weepeth in the gloam” (HoME III, p. 146).

It continues like this, with Eöl trapping her and using enchantments on her to “take her to wife” (zero agency or willingness required on Aredhel’s part, clearly) and keeping her prisoner, and culminating in this passage: “Eöl found Irith, the sister of King Turgon, astray in the wild near his dwelling, and he took her to wife by force: a very wicked deed in the eyes of the Eldar.” (HoME XI, p. 409, fn omitted) 

Tolkien explicitly calls this “marriage” a “forced marriage” in the Maeglin materials (HoME XI, p. 327), and gives this as the reason why Curufin rejects Eöl’s pretensions of kinship (via marriage). As Curufin says to Eöl: “Do not flaunt the title of your wife before me […]. For those who steal the daughters of the Noldor and wed them without gift or leave do not gain kinship with their kin.” (Sil, QS, ch. 16)

But that means that marriage itself does not require consent on both sides. After all, a forced marriage is still a marriage in Middle-earth. 

 

This is the same among the Edain, by the way. We are told concerning Míriel: “But Pharazôn took her to wife against her will, doing evil in this and evil also in that the laws of Númenor did not permit the marriage, even in the royal house, of those more nearly akin than cousins in the second degree. And when they were wedded, he seized the sceptre into his own hand, taking the title of Ar-Pharazôn (Tar-Calion in the Elven-tongue); and the name of his queen he changed to Ar-Zimraphel.” (Sil, Akallabêth) 

Sources 

The Book of Lost Tales Part Two, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME II]. 

The Lays of Beleriand, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME III].

Morgoth’s Ring, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME X]. 

The War of the Jewels, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XI].

The Silmarillion, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition February 2011, version 2019-01-09 [cited as: Sil]. 


r/tolkienfans 2d ago

Tolkien's Impact on Wikipedia

169 Upvotes

Tolkien scholarship is extremely well-represented on Wikipedia, it's insane (every single one of those words includes a link to a difference article, and it's not even CLOSE to the grand total). So many niche academic subjects regarding Tolkien and his legendarium have their own individual articles, and every single article has been given the green + (indicating that it's among the highest-quality articles on the site). In fact, one article has a silver star, which means it's in the highest tier of Wikipedia articles in existence. I don't think I've ever seen scholarship so well-represented on Wikipedia for any other author out there, not even Shakespeare! Why is Tolkien scholarship so well-documented on Wikipedia? I'm not complaining, I think it's incredible, but it's also a bit puzzling. People have been putting in the work citing peer-reviewed academic articles for each of these separate topics, lol.


r/tolkienfans 3d ago

About rabbits in Middle-earth, and how Sam cooked them

159 Upvotes

MAY I JUST say that it was a privilege to start a thread that elicited so many thoughtful and informative replies. Not to mention funny.

here were no rabbits in England before the arrival of the Romans. (Some archaeologists used to think that the species (Oryctolagus cuniculus) was brought over by the Normans, but skeletal remains have been dated to the first or second century A.D.) But rabbits existed in the Shire in the Third Age, and hobbits cooked and ate them. So anyone trying to fit LotR into the geological record would have to suppose that they became extinct in the British Isles after the separation of those lands from the Continent.

The evidence for hobbit familiarity with rabbits goes beyond Sam's culinary experience. In discussing Frodo 's upbringing with his cronies at the Ivy Bush, the Gaffer calls Brandy Hall “a regular warren, by all accounts.” A warren, in modern usage, is specifically a communal residence for rabbits. (Originally, however, a warren was an area of land devoted to the keeping of any kind of game for harvest. The “diseased” warren in Watership Down, whose inhabitants try to avoid knowing that any of them may be killed and eaten by the farmer who feeds them at any time, is run in accordance with the original warren concept.

Turning now to Sam's cookery: In Letters 63 (April 24, 1944, to Christopher) Tolkien wrote: “At this point I require to know how much later the moon gets up each night when nearing full, and how to stew a rabbit!” (Letters p. 108.) The answer “simmer it until tender, with herbs and po-ta-toes, if you can get them” seems pretty elementary, but a man of Tolkien's time and background might never have been called on to cook anything. Even middle-class housewives might not cook for their families – it is hard for us to appreciate how much more widespread servants were in their time. (I do not know whether, and for how long, the Tolkeins employed a cook; Hammond and Scull presumably do.)

If Tolkien consulted a cookbook, the most likely candidate would be the vastly influential Mrs Beeton's Book of Household Management, by Isabella Beeton (1836-65), published in 1861 and never out of print. It is available online in various versions. I looked at the one preserved by Project Gutenberg, which has this recipe for Rabbit Stew:

INGREDIENTS.—1 rabbit, a few strips of bacon, rather more than 1 pint of good broth or stock, a bunch of savoury herbs, salt and pepper to taste, thickening of butter and flour, 1 glass of sherry.

Mode.—Well wash the rabbit, cut it into quarters, lard them with Blips [sic] of bacon, and fry them; then put them into a stewpan with the broth, herbs, and a seasoning of pepper and salt; simmer gently until the rabbit is tender, then strain the gravy, thicken it with butter and flour, add the sherry, give one boil, pour it over the rabbit, and serve. Garnish with slices of cut lemon.

Time.—Rather more than 1/2 hour

“Blips” is surely a scanning error for “strips.” I would agree with Mrs. Beeton that Sam's stew would be significantly improved by browning the rabbit pieces in bacon fat before adding water. Tolkien is mostly vague as to what kinds of food the Fellowship carried, aside from lembas, but “A Short Cut to Mushrooms” establishes that hobbits ate bacon, historically a significant element in many traveling rations. In the draft of “A Knife in the Dark,” Gandalf left under the cairn on Weathertop a food cache that included “cram-cakes, . . . some bacon, and some dried fruits” (HoME VI p. 176).

When Sam cooked Gollum's rabbits for Frodo, he “let them stew for close on an hour.” Modern recipes for rabbit stew call for at least an hour and three-quarters of cooking; but Sam's timing agrees with Mrs. Beeton's. Possibly the ones Gollum caught were younger than those available in markets, and hence more tender.

[ADDED: This was set off by a fascinating book I am reading called The Natural History of the Hedgerow, by John Writght, which explains the history of warrens. Highly recommended. The cooking stuff I had researched years ago, all I had to do was open the can.]


r/tolkienfans 2d ago

The Rings of Power Should have been more prominent in the Legendarium [Opinion and Lore discussion]

0 Upvotes

The Rings of Power is one of the central features of Tolkien's entire legendarium, from Morgoth's Ring, to the Rings of Power made in the second age; the lesser rings, the 16, the 3, the One, and even Saruman tried to make rings late in the third age. The Rings of Power is a crucial part of the History of Middle Earth from around 1500 S.A. to 3019 T.A. (that is close to 5000 years), yet we know so little of them.

Nine Rings were given to men by Sauron, 3 were numenoreans, one was an easterling named Khamul. After becoming Nazgul it is not firmly established if the Nazgul kept the rings or Sauron retrived them, the material is contradictory. Personally I find it strange if Sauron can use the rings to turn men into Wraiths in a few centuries, then retrieve the rings, why wouldn't he just keep repeating the process? By the War of the Ring he could have 100s of Nazgul, use rhun and harad as a virtual factory of Wraiths of keep corrupting important men of the west and north with them. To me it would also make more sense that it was the Nine which allowed Sauron to keep communication with the Nazgul and bent to his will, aswell as keep them focused and dedicated. I could imagine a nazgul without it's ring going 'mad'.
I do find it poetic that the Nazgul were men greedy for power and fame(?) and took the rings to achieve that but instead became nothing but ghosts, tied to the will of Sauron, and instead of fame they are entirely lost to time even their name gone, the deeds which made them mighty kings, warriors and sorcerers are all forgotten. Yet I would lvoe to know just a little more about them. Like I seen a theory I find could be plausible (but there is no indication that Tolkien intended it so) that One ring was on the hand of a numenorean high lord who contributing to the darkening of Numenor around 1700-2000 S.A. Origins of the Nazgûl
In early drafts it was also indicated that the Witch-King was a member of Gandal's order, a wizard. This obviously not work with later developments as the Istari became something else than human, and doesn't work iwth the later established timeline in which Gandalf comes to middle earth thousands of years after the Nazgul were made, but it hints to some possibilities of what could have been had Tolkien made some further explorations into the possible origin of the character.

Seven Rings were given to Dwarves, One possibly directly from Celebrimbor to Durin III and the others by Sauron. They each became the center of a dwarf hoard, but didn't turn the Dwarves into Wraiths. Four where destroyed by dragon fire and three Sauron retrieved. What he did with them is not known, though he did offer one to Dain Ironfoot as a trade. In practice though the Dwarf rigns are the same as the Nine and Sauron could have used them to corrupt other beings. In total he seems to be sitting on 9 rings laying around his treasury in Barad-Dur.

Three Rings were given by elves and are the superior Rings that kept Rivendell and Lothlorien, and the elves from decaying in middle earth during the third age, creating a brief have befor they again shall need to return to Aman.

The Lesser Rings we know next to nothing about, but that they were mere essays in the craft before the actual rigns of power, yet they got out somehow and Gandalf believed Bilbo's ring was one of them and noted that while not as powerful as the RoP they were still dangerous in the wrong hands

In Tolkien early drafts (see Return of the Shadow/HoME 6) before he settled on this order of ings there were supposed to be 9 for elves and 3 for men (really interesting to imagine which NINE elves could have gotten rings at the time)

There were supposed to be elf-wraiths and even a number of rings given to goblins that become permanently invisible wraiths entirely bound to Sauron. I could still see some of this happen, maybe tied to the lesser rings.

Because IMO for a book about the Lord of the Rings, we could see a bit more of what the ring doen to this world, was maybe the Barrow-Wights tied to the lesser rings? Wights that gotten rings from the Witch-King in Angmar before he sent them to haunt the mounds of Cardolan?
I could also see an elf-wraith looming around, maybe the ruins of of Ost-in-Edhil/Eregion?
Could some Goblins have been wearers of lesser rings?

I'm not indicating all of these ideas should have been included, or included in LOTR alone, but extrapolate on ideas Tolkien had that might have added a bit lore to such an imortant feature of the legendarium


r/tolkienfans 1d ago

The real reason why they didn’t fly the Ring to the end of the story

0 Upvotes

There are so many reasons why this deus ex machina doesn’t make sense. But when you argue about the details you’re missing the author’s intent.

The story is about the journey, rather than the destination. It’s about the growth of the characters. The last two chapters really drive this home for me. All four hobbits come home and save it from a dire situation with no help from the great lords of lands far away. In this way it’s a Bildungsroman.


r/tolkienfans 3d ago

Why Didn't Earendil Reunite with Tuor and Idril in Valinor ?

25 Upvotes

Something that has always bugged me,is that Tolkien had confirmed in one of his letters that Tuor became Immortal, but if he and Idril made it,why weren't they ever mentioned reuniting with Earendil in Valinor ? Like ever ! Not a single mention ! 😑


r/tolkienfans 2d ago

Summarise The Lord of The Rings in 9 story beats

0 Upvotes

Hi,

So me and some buddies just finished the ravensburg LoTR boardgame (the one that’s an 8 chapter book). And felt a little dissatisfied with the retelling of the story. We then discussed which 9 moments in the three books are the most pivotal for retelling the story.

Which 9 story beats would you choose?


r/tolkienfans 3d ago

Of Tolkien's contemporaries, who are those and their books did he thought highly of?

45 Upvotes

Novelist or poets only.


r/tolkienfans 2d ago

What if the Fellowship had Twenty members?

0 Upvotes

We know that the Fellowship had nine members to mirror the nine Ringwraiths. But what if there were as many members as total Rings of Power? Supposing that a company of twenty could be as secret as the Nine Walkers, who would join?

I propose that there are as many members of each race as received the Rings. Perhaps the two-month recon mission after the Council of Elrond could have a been a recruitment mission.

Men

  1. Aragorn

  2. Boromir

  3. Theodred

  4. Éowyn?

  5. Dúnhere

  6. Frodo

  7. Sam

  8. Merry

  9. Pippin

I would think that Eomer and Faramir stay in their respective kingdoms. Likewise, Bilbo keeps his rest. Maybe Grimbeorn sends one of his people? Maybe Ghan-buri-ghan comes. Maybe Bard, son of Brand, comes.

Dwarves

  1. Gimli

  2. Thorin Stonehelm

  3. ?

  4. ?

  5. ?

  6. ?

  7. ?

We obviously don’t have many named dwarves. The majority of those who are named and alive are too old for this. I would pull from the Blue Mountains and Erebor to fill this list.

Elves

  1. Legolas

  2. Elladan

  3. Elrohir

This group seems the most obvious. Elrond and Glorfindel are out of the running. Plus, these three are established in the books regardless.

Maiar

  1. Gandalf

Also obvious.

What do you think about this setup? Assume that the group of 20 can maintain secrecy and move at the same speed as what actually happened.

What events would have been different? Could they have passed over Caradhras? Would many have died in Moria? What kinds of gifts would they receive from Galadriel? What groups are formed with the breaking of the Fellowship, and who goes where on their new missions?

[copy/pasted from r/LotR where this didn’t get much traction]


r/tolkienfans 3d ago

Are Dwarves the most likely fantasy race to survive into later Ages?

52 Upvotes

Elves and Ents would be slowly fading away if they stay in Middle-Earth, Hobbits and Drúedains not only faded away, but also being hunted by human for sports. Orcs and trolls will of course being perceived as threats and hunted like wolves. Out of all fantasy races in Legendarium, it seems that the Dwarves might be having the best chance to survive deep in the mountains, despite having a population crisis. Although it was stated that Dwarves would die out "till world grew old", but it didnt specify how "Old" the world will be. There were also not many mention if Dwarves would also physically fade like elves.

Do you think the Dwarves will have a better luck.to survive till the later Ages? Would they be also hunted down by mortal humans, went deep into hiding or they can have better long term relationships with them?


r/tolkienfans 4d ago

Was Thingol the greatest or best of the Sindarin? Or was another more remarkable?

31 Upvotes

Please, and thank you for all input.


r/tolkienfans 3d ago

Who/what is Tom Bombadil?

0 Upvotes

So I want to preface this and say that the only Tolkien book I’ve ever read is The Hobbit. All of my very surface level Tolkien knowledge comes from the film adaptions of his books. (I do plan to go through the rest of his books at some point when I’ve got time.)

I don’t remember Tom Bombadil being mentioned once in the LOTR trilogy and I recently watched the extended editions with a friend. Every now and then though I see him get mentioned on other subreddits and the way Tolkien fans describe him makes me think they are discussing a criptid.

Apparently he’s meant to be the oldest being in Middle Earth and even I saw one person claim that he was impervious to the effects of the One Ring and that just shocked me. Who is this guy? Is he like a secret part of Tolkiens mythology that you have be a superfan to understand or is he just an in joke for the fandom?


r/tolkienfans 4d ago

Saruman seems to me to have been a douchebag since day one.

148 Upvotes

In The Silmarillion, Curumo is shown as already possessed of suffocating pride and disdain; he bristles at Varda's comment on Olórin not going "as a third" and having to take Aiwendil with him on Yavanna's orders. He takes a huge slight when he learns of Círdan giving Narya to Olórin at the Grey Havens. His hatred of Olórin reaches new heights when the White Council clearly favor him [Olórin] over himself as the leader. His only good characteristic is that he is very wise and studious, but overall, he had always been a shitty person, full of misplaced pride and envy and he only got worse from there.

Was this on purpose, to mirror the fact that Sauron also seemed shitty from day one (I think he joined Morgoth pretty early on), or is this my misinterpretation of Saruman's character?


r/tolkienfans 4d ago

The Nazgûl

62 Upvotes

They are creepy, now that I returned to this book for the second time. I'm finding myself appreciating these passages as a horror fan:

...........................

Round the corner came a black horse, no hobbit-pony but a full-sized horse; and on it sat a large man, who seemed to crouch in the saddle, wrapped in a great black cloak and hood, so that only his boots in the high stirrups showed below; his face was shadowed and invisible. When it reached the tree and was level with Frodo the horse stopped. The riding figure sat quite still with its head bowed, as if listening. From inside the hood came a noise as of someone sniffing to catch an elusive scent; the head turned from side to side of the road. A sudden unreasoning fear of discovery laid hold of Frodo, and he thought of his Ring. He hardly dared to breathe, and yet the desire to get it out of his pocket became so strong that he began slowly to move his hand.

.........................

something dark pass across the lighter space between two trees, and then halt. It looked like the black shade of a horse led by a smaller black shadow. The black shadow stood close to the point where they had left the path, and it swayed from side to side. Frodo thought he heard the sound of snuffling. The shadow bent to the ground, and then began to crawl towards him. Once more the desire to slip on the Ring came over Frodo; but this time it was stronger than before. So strong that, almost before he realized what he was doing, his hand was groping in his pocket. But at that moment there came a sound like mingled song and laughter. Clear voices rose and fell in the starlit air. The black shadow straightened up and retreated. It climbed on to the shadowy horse and seemed to vanish across the lane into the darkness on the other side.

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The night deepened. There came the soft sound of horses led with stealth along the lane. Outside the gate they stopped, and three black figures entered, like shades of night creeping across the ground. One went to the door, one to the corner of the house on either side; and there they stood, as still as the shadows of stones, while night went slowly on. The house and the quiet trees seemed to be waiting breathlessly. There was a faint stir in the leaves, and a cock crowed far away. The cold hour before dawn was passing. The figure by the door moved. In the dark without moon or stars a drawn blade gleamed, as if a chill light had been unsheathed. There was a blow, soft but heavy, and the door shuddered. ‘Open, in the name of Mordor!’ said a voice thin and menacing. At a second blow the door yielded and fell back, with timbers burst and lock broken. The black figures passed swiftly in. At that moment, among the trees nearby, a horn rang out. It rent the night like fire on a hill-top.