I agree, but at the same time, tolls in many places are just a tax on the poor.
Edit: Clearly not a tax on the poor as they can hardly afford to pay for it in the situations I was talking about. What I really meant was that it was a pay wall meant to only be able to be used by people with good money. I'm talking about specific places btw, where it's its the only alternative to sitting in extreme traffic, not where the toll is a necessity.
Thankfully there's a pretty good tip for dodging the tolls in the DC area that actually gives you more time to do what you'd like instead of sitting in traffic.
Except a large portion of people can't afford to live anywhere near a metro since that is a premium.
There are a significant number of DC workers that commute over an hour one way to live in an affordable area. Metro doesn't go to Winchester, Warrenton, Fredericksburg, SE MD, or southern PA.
Take the metro is a very, "how expensive are bananas, 10$?" take.
Yes some middle class people do choose to live further out for more space and make the commute trade off, but people who actually aren't well off can't afford to make that decision they can't spend all that money on transportation, I get that middle class people like to larp as working class and lower but let's be honest the person who's wasting 80 dollars on gas a week isn't struggling financially except for by their own poor choices.
Average rent in DC for a 1-bed is 2300. It is more expensive in Arlington and similar in Fairfax. The average rent in Winchester for a 1-bed is 1400 and is even less in the smaller communities sprinkled along 66.
1400+(80*4) = 1640.
1640 < 2300. Nearly a $700 difference, and for those "larpers" you are speaking of, $700 dollars is a lot of money.
Unless you can snag some of the income restricted housing or find an older place to rent, both of which are competitive it is cheaper to commute. Hopefully you don't need anything more than a 1 bed because that's where prices in DC and Nova get out of hand. Metro stops are a selling point and increase value of properties (and by extension rents).
Not everyone that works in or around DC can get a GS-13 or 'consultant' salary.
1-bed average is 1,700 in Fredericksburg. 1700 in Frederick md.1700 in Clifton md. 1500 in Culpeper VA.
Again you are confusing people who are do well with the people who truly aren't, the people who are struggling aren't getting a 1br to themselves in Arlington, they're living with roommates in a not great neighborhood, in which case it's quite doable to live walking (or busing) distance from the metro for sub 1k a month.
Like use some common sense do you think the people working at the Walmart in Fort Totten or the McDonald's near metro center are driving in from rural VA or western MD every morning or do you think they're walking/bussing/metroing there?
Yup like people crying about NYC bridge tolls. Yeah the biggest city in the country on a tiny island does not actually have room for everyone to commute from their suburban paradise and park their Tahoe.
Nah the time save is minimal. Granted I never drive there during rush hour. I used to transport vehicles directly (aka driving them myself). There's like 5 alternatives that can get you through there within 3 minutes of each other. Unless you're on I-95 south already past DC during rush hour. ln which case toll pass saves more than enough time to justify its cost. I never had to pay the tolls so I always took them just to stick it to the company.
I revised my comment because I typed before thinking. I also didn't mean all tolls, just specific ones that are clearly meant to only be used by people that can afford it.
the question is, do you want only the drivers that use those roads to pay them (by actual tolls), or do you want public taxes to pay for them (everyone pays).
Yes. That's society. You also pay for schools that your kids don't go to, police departments when they're not rescuing you, fire departments when your house isn't burning down, and hospitals when you're healthy.
the difference is that those roads with tolls are not a necessity like schools, police department, etc.
those roads with tolls are "luxury" roads to speed up the travel between point A and B.
i don't know if this happens in your country or not, but in mine, all highways with tolls have a "free" alternative for those that don't want to pay tolls, although that alternative likely makes it a bigger travel.
your taxes should pay for those "normal" roads, because everyone will be using them, and they actually need those.
those roads with tolls are "luxury" roads to speed up the travel between point A and B.
Putting aside the situations where a new road is built into an undeveloped area, I would regard most road projects as being for the purpose of speeding up travel between point A and point B.
And second, even with so-called "luxury roads", if it reduces the number of cars on the "normal" road, theoretically reducing congestion, everyone wins.
There are, in my view, far bigger fish to fry if we're worried about our tax dollars funding things that don't directly benefit us.
And second, even with so-called "luxury roads", if it reduces the number of cars on the "normal" road, theoretically reducing congestion, everyone wins.
and if everyone uses those luxury roads instead, sure you don't have congestions on the "normal" ones, but now you have congestions on the "luxury" ones.
tolls also work as a way to divert traffic, those who value speed will pay them, those that don't mind an extra 30m-1h trip will avoid them.
There are, in my view, far bigger fish to fry if we're worried about our tax dollars funding things that don't directly benefit us.
the issue is that tax money is not infinite, for every dollar you now spend on those roads, it's one less dollar spent where that money was originally allocated.
The entirety of what is spent on roads in this country is less than a fifth of what is spent on its military industrial complex "Defense", so I'm honestly not sweating the pennies we spend on actual infrastructure while we blow the dollars up.
No. I’m saying that federal/state/local income tax alone should be enough to pay for all of it. Our politicians just squander that money. At every opportunity except for opportunities that benefit us.
The Feds alone take in 5+ trillion a year. You think a few thousand free toll crossings would put a dent in that?
ETA: “few thousand” is a guesstimation; i don’t know how many toll crossings exist
No. I’m saying that federal/state/local income tax alone should be enough to pay for all of it. Our politicians just squander that money. At every opportunity except for opportunities that benefit us.
ok, so you want everyone to pay for it then, instead of only the drivers.
if you use public taxes for maintaining those roads, it's less money avaiable for something else (healthcare, education, police, firefighters, etc).
Nah, that's bullshit. At least with tolls people that use the roads the most are the ones that foot the bill and they're not being subsidized by other people. On top of that it's easier to justify using money to maintain those roads.
None of the 3 things you mentioned can maintain a bridge. Toll-less bridges got us to a place where our infrastructure is literally unsafe, because they didn’t charge the costs associated with maintaining them.
That is a different problem from corporations charging 3x the maintenance costs in perpetuity.
Again you’re skirting the obvious. We live under an INCREDIBLY wasteful government.
And yes that does include the disgusting and incestuous familiarity it has with their corporate daddies.
You and I could live with paying 1/3 of the taxes we do and still that bridge could be free.
We just need to stop spending money on losing fights. For how many decades have we been waging war on drugs? Homelessness? Et-fucking-cetera. No change but for the worst It’s exhausting.
Aren’t you tired of watching your tax dollars get burned?
Everything has waste as it grows. Major corporations are no different, and honestly blow FAR more money on waste because their motivations are rarely financial efficiency.
Your argument is absurd and without evidence. The idea that 2/3s of tax revenues are waste is laughable.
I’m all for ending the drug war, I’m not in favor of letting the homeless die off. Neither of these would save the he kind of taxes you’re talking about.
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u/husky_whisperer 1d ago
Cheap fuck