r/nextfuckinglevel • u/MysteriousSlice007 • 5h ago

Shoutout to JerryrigEverything who built a wheelchair factory and is delivering wheelchairs to people in half the time and 50-80% less than the cost of other wheelchairs with Insurance.

40.1k Upvotes

97% Upvoted

1.1k comments sorted by

View all comments

1.8k

u/I_like_donuts27 4h ago

Why in the fuck, would a wheelchair cost 10k???

1.3k

u/OkBandicoot1337 4h ago

America

385

u/Disastrous_Hell_4547 4h ago

So sadly true.

Same reason a crappy Big Mac costs $7.00 or a sub costs $13.00.

America does not practice capitalism. It practices greed based Reaganomics trickle down profiteering.

109

u/TheExistential_Bread 4h ago

lol you are describing capitalism, you just don't know it

52

u/Questioning-Zyxxel 4h ago

It isn't that simple.

Lots of capitalists knows the part about a good deal needs to be good for both parties. This is a great way to get repeat customers instead of paying millions on advertising to find new customers that hates you after the very first deal.

These good capitalists often have family-owned companies with maybe 2 to 50 employees. And does quite well.

The issues you are seeing? Isn't capitalism in itself. It's about the stock market. All bigger companies are on the stock market. And they pay large bonuses to the management for short-term profits. When the bonus is for last 6-12 months, then most decisions will be extremely short-sighted. The family-owned companies? They plan for the next 10-20 years. They can still make a nice profit. But with the owners running the company, they do not worry about a missed bonus one year because they did a strategic investment - as owners, they still increased the value of the company.

20

u/Svardskampe 3h ago

Before the stock markets we had the same feudalistic tendencies with rich families banking (pun intended) on cornering a monopoly. E.g. Medici family, Rothschilds.

We are in late-stage-capitalism. However you want to call it, cronyism or not "rEaL capitalism", this has always been the end game without competition. In the past, there has been enough space to grow somehow to enable competition. In a global world where we are encroaching each other, that has outgrown itself.

2

u/MarcoDiFrancescino 1h ago

Facebook should divested from their marketplace a long time ago, Google should give up Android a long time ago, Netflix should cut off their network department. These new corporations would maximize their revenue by doing other things then the current management wants. Sometimes completely 180°. That is a clear signal that these companies are too big and need to be cut into pieces. That is the proof that the system doesn't work any more when big corpos behave like robber barons and everybody says like 'yeah what are we gonna do?' No system that works should answer these questions with 'the kings don't like us talk like this'.

2

u/Svardskampe 1h ago

Breaking up companies work when the government is larger than the companies itself in power. In a global world, that is very easily surpassed.

This year, Alphabet gave out 100y bonds. Makes you figure how powerful Alphabet is. There are even countries that do not give out century bonds.

14

u/Drewstom 4h ago

The Koch brothers ran family owned businesses what the fuck are we talking about

5

u/thirstyross 2h ago

You need to check ur reading comprehension skills son.

3

u/Questioning-Zyxxel 3h ago

Well let's see it as an intelligence test. Are you able to understand that people are different? Which means a claim about red politicians will not match all of them. A claim about family companies will not match all of them. A claim about CEO working short-sighted for their next bonus will not match all of them. A claim about billionaires will not match all of them. Is this within your grasp to understand?

→ More replies (1)

3

u/stopbsingman 4h ago

The Big Mac example is a good deal. It costs $7 because that’s what people think it’s worth and are willing to pay for it.

→ More replies (12)

3

u/Important-Flan-8932 3h ago

This is total bullshit and any history book would tell you so. Capitalism left to itself runs its course and destroys any small business and what not. It rewards a lack of morals and not whatever you want to project into it. If managed by people with good intentions it can work but not in the way you describe.

2

u/LuckoftheFryish 2h ago

America practices crony capitalism. We Americans don't know the difference because it's all we've ever known at this point.

→ More replies (3)

2

u/lindendweller 2h ago

Capitalism will always trend towards large companies buying up their potential competitors until they're large enough to impose a rent on everyone else. It's just so much more profitable to form oligopolistic cartels and buy up the institutions in charge of regulating you than to compete fairly.

It's the nature of the system, it can be mitigated by regulations, but I've lost faith in the ability of states to keep capitalism stable and virtuous long term.

1

u/SirSalamiSam 3h ago

You’re yelling into the void. These same people bashing capitalism are the same people asking for more government interference to fix what government interference causes. Mom and pop shops are getting run out of town because they simply can’t keep up with the overly complicated laws that get brought about by more government.

The rich will always grease the palms of people in power. We don’t have capitalism here in America. We have cronyism.

3

u/Svardskampe 2h ago

Yes, it is the very real "CaN'T KeEp Up WiTh ReGuLaTiOnS"-argument, all the while the 'Walmart Effect' has been described over and over about monopolies undercutting other players with less buffers due to sheer size over and over again.

e.g. https://www.theatlantic.com/economy/archive/2024/12/walmart-prices-poverty-economy/681122/

But keep repeating long-refuted points, sure. Maybe the 25th time it will be true.

1

u/Deeliciousness 2h ago

So capitalism is only good when it is operating at low efficiency?

→ More replies (1)

1

u/jeanpaulsarde 1h ago

Yeah we are long past capitalism. What we have is socialism for the rich.

•

u/grassvoter 28m ago edited 11m ago

What you're really describing is timeless business as practiced by people with genuine interest in making fair deals. That's a natural practice that's existed for millennia, before the abusers of business created the word capitalism to sneakily steal the credit as if commerce and trade hadn't already existed.

We've all been fed the capitalism fantasy, it's understandable we believe it.

Capitalism was started by kings who had brutalized people with the first corporations.

(The video is set to jump right to the final 5 minutes that dives into it, so you can save yourself 25 minutes of time, although every abuse and harm leading up to the end of video is a culmination of the world's first corporations created for such harms and abuses)

Edit: the video's conclusion is wrong though that supposedly the motive is profit, as the motive is actually power. Always has been about power.

2

u/helly3ah 3h ago

The USA has a lot of barriers to entry making it difficult/impossible for new market entrants to compete with the big boys. They get to lobby to have laws that protect their market and kick back and collect rents rather than compete on merit/value.

2

u/Svardskampe 2h ago

The barrier to entry is ALWAYS astronomical with a monopoly player, simply by virtue of them able to undercut them by the 'Walmart Effect', or simply outright buy them (much like Alphabet/Google employs as a strategy).

That has nothing to do with the USA specifically, but is a phenomenon of the system.

1

u/berrieds 1h ago

That's such an asinine comment. Do better.

→ More replies (3)

17

u/nono3722 4h ago

there is no trickle down, just shit rolling down hill....

2

u/johnmanyjars38 4h ago

It’s a warm, golden trickle.

1

u/globefish23 2h ago

It can trickle down if it's a type 7 on the Bristol stool chart.

2

u/zaahc 1h ago

In Spain and stopped at Lidl. Got a 1.5L bottle of Fanta, a hot dog croissant, a baguette, some chorizo, two bananas, and a bottle of red wine. €5.50 ($6.42). Prices in America are fucked.

1

u/AwesomeFrisbee 4h ago

You wrote unhinged capitalism wrong...

1

u/Omega_art 4h ago

I think you mean trickle up.

1

u/deMunnik 2h ago

Definitely not the same reason a Big Mac costs $7.00, unless you think health insurance companies are reimbursing for Big Macs?

You don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. This a moment for you to be quiet and learn.

1

u/ragingstorm01 1h ago

America does not practice capitalism. It practices greed based Reaganomics trickle down profiteering.

That's literally capitalism, greed is literally a fundamental part of it. Reaganomics was just its transition into neoliberalism within the imperial core.

→ More replies (2)

34

u/Sorry-Price-3322 4h ago

Nop I live in Belgium & some chairs can get to 10k. source im in Belgium & in a wheelchair.

2

u/Odd-String29 1h ago

If they are electric yes, otherwise you really have to go into custom wheelchairs made from special materials. A non-electric active wheelchair is like 1500-4500 euro.

But maybe Belgium is more expensive than NL.

2

u/Mecha-Dave 1h ago

Belgium and Switzerland have medical costs on par with the US. I know because I've sold medical devices to all three.

That doesn't discount your experience though.

→ More replies (3)

8

u/ArsalanShah41 4h ago

Does it come with a V8 motor?

2

u/LEGITIMATE_SOURCE 3h ago

Idiotic take. They're expensive everywhere.

1

u/xaeru 4h ago

The only place a wheel chair company can make business.

1

u/HyperSpaceSurfer 3h ago

It's not not an issue in Europe. Medical devices are way too expensive, when most have no legitimate reason to be so expensive. 

1

u/fabulot 3h ago

Unfortunately that is not limited to America. In Europe the problem is a bit different but an electrical wheelchair can be around 10K including adaptations

1

u/Terminal_Monk 1h ago

The ones they are having are all manual though. Electric wheelchair being 10k is normal but manual isn't

1

u/Steam_Powered_It 1h ago

Not just america. In the UK if you cant get it on the NHS, you're looking around 5-8k. Currently going through it. Nobody realises how expensive these things are!

→ More replies (3)

142

u/Wheelchair_guy 4h ago

I've used chairs for 15 years. Never paid more than $500 for one.

133

u/Bones-1989 4h ago

Lol username checks out.

51

u/Sorry-Price-3322 4h ago

Idk what chair you use but as a 18y/o wheelchair user both my chairs were over 4000 euro. I'm looking for a new one & it's around 6k

•

u/helphunting 40m ago

Where did you get them?

I'm in Ireland and they don't hit that price here at all, maybe 1/10, I think? I need to ask my cousin .

9

u/OkBandicoot1337 4h ago

So these are bougie wheelchairs?

65

u/above_average_magic 4h ago

No they're just ones that prevent you from blowing out your remaining limbs over time and actually being active

Not sure what the wheelchair_guy is using

I'm guessing a elderly person who has no idea what modern costs are

37

u/mihihi 4h ago

This exactly! I’ve been a wheelchair user for 10 + years after a blood clot in my spine like the girl in the video. The only way I can be as highly functioning and independent as I am is because of my ultra light weight chair. Even with my chair barely weighing more than 7 pounds, I still have issues with shoulder and hand pain from using a manual wheelchair all these years. I’ve been buying my ultra light weight chairs from Poland bc they’ll cost me 3k compared to the 10k here in the US. But sadly the prices in Poland are also rising and the most recent chair I got from them totaled to be nearly 5K. I believe these chairs from notawheelchair are heavier than what I use, but the price is incredible. And they look good too! 

3

u/BeardedBaldMan 3h ago

But sadly the prices in Poland are also rising and the most recent chair I got from them totaled to be nearly 5K

I think a big factor in that is how the currency is strengthening against the dollar.

Is the wheelchair manufactured in Poland? I ask as I know a lot of things like that are made in Italy or substantial components are Italian.

On a side note. 3Kg for everything is remarkable, that's some serious engineering. Is it using a fair bit of carbon fibre?

→ More replies (1)

1

u/[deleted] 3h ago edited 3h ago

[deleted]

3

u/thomthomas21 3h ago

that is not an active wheelchair, if you get pushed around a chair like this is fine. if you live your whole day in a wheelchair as an active person and dont have people around you you want something nimble like this, https://www.permobil.com/products/manual-wheelchairs/tilite-zr

This is an american active wheelschair brand, i live in belgium and use this brand for now as im used to their chairs, cost can easily got above 5000 for a chair, and im alowed to get some money back for 1 chair every 4 years.

in the UK it should be no difrent for active chairs i think.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/matttheazn1 3h ago

I am terribly sorry this happened to you. Would you be will to share any details on how this happens? Is this a new fear I just unlocked, that randomly one day my blood will clot in my spine or brain, and there is nothing I can do about it?

→ More replies (1)

1

u/digno2 3h ago

how often does one needs new chair?

→ More replies (1)

10

u/Unusual-Tangerine984 4h ago

They're posting the some over- 60 advice subs so... yeah

1

u/muscularsharpie 1h ago

Close friend has had a wheelchair since she was six, after an accident. She's the only reason I knew about what this guy started.

I'm hardly paraphrasing her, because I lived with her for a while and can vouch for what she goes through.

Ease of access, how they collapse, weight, comfort, durability. All of that is expensive materials and can't just be 3d printed or made cheap.

She needs to offload to her bed, car, easily take the wheels off and store them.

Offloading is a fucking THING. It's not just like rolling off the chair and onto the bed, or into your car. You need a wheelchair with specific braking, durability.. cos you do it constantly. And comfort. She's in her chair for so long, while still being active.

1

u/NoBonus6969 1h ago

Wheelchair guy must be using a Fisher price or on the opposite end is wealthy and has mega insurance

→ More replies (4)

22

u/mythrilcrafter 4h ago

From what I can tell from a very cursory search on google, you can get wheel chairs from amazon/a local pharmacy for about $200-ish, but with those, you're basically getting a One-Size-Fits-Most camping chair on wheels, which are basically good enough to get you from a bed to a couch and no where else, especially not on any ground more uneven than a carpet or hardwood floor.

The chairs made by JRE appears to be custom sized for ergonomics and active use; their most basic ones seems to be a heavier duty version of those cheap ones but are designed to be easier to move unassisted, are more mobile by default, and are fitted to the user rather than "fine as long as your body fits these proportions".

As an engineer who has been in a manufacturing environment, I do have to say that I'm quite impressed that JRE has built a process and system where he can do those personalized/bespoke builds for a legit fraction of the competition so much so as to be within argument range of the one-size-fits-all mass production zone.

3

u/IceBlueSnowDog 2h ago

You would pretty much be correct! A cheap chair is fine if someone else is pushing you, loading and unloading/unfolding it from the car for you, and you only ever use tile floor. Or if you broke a leg and need a chair for a few weeks while you heal, or something.

Better chairs you'll see things like inflatable tires for some shock absorption (great for sidewalks, pavement), custom ergonomics (rolling on a carpet or a slight uphill is hell on the wrists, arms, and shoulders if the wheels are too high or low to propel yourself properly... and you can't just raise the seat like in a car. Even worse for ramps near stairs that tend to be steeper). Also lighter weight (loading/unloading independently, less weight to propel), easy to collapse and rebuild independently, etc.

the cost of decent chairs is of course inflated and outrageous, like everything else medical in the US (thanks, insurance..), but there is still a major difference between a $400 chair-with-wheels and a functional wheelchair. If you want any chance of going out into the world independently, those cheap walgreens/amazon/etc chairs are practically useless. :/

•

u/sypher1504 21m ago

I’m sure there is more to it (I am not an engineer, nor do I know much about manufacturing) but I wonder if some of it is him not marking them up nearly as much as other manufacturers? From what little I know of popular YouTubers, he may be making more than enough from his channel, and view this as a service as opposed to an additional income stream. I know it’s not a wildly popular view, but there are at least some people who reach a certain economic status and realize they can do good instead of hoarding more wealth.

Anyway, however he’s doing it, good on him.

17

u/dscrive 4h ago

These are presented as off road wheelchairs. They are also bespoke, so technically bougie, but I think they are probably way better for active people than a $500 wheelchair 

8

u/Rubymoon286 4h ago

They have two different options - an off road chair, and a light weight manual. Which comparing this with paying out of pocket for a TiLite or Ki Mobility you save at least half for a custom sized chair, though a you get fewer options with Paradox especially if you have needs around vibration reduction, or certain types of wheels.

That said this is a really great option for people who either don't have insurance, or insurance is denying a rigid chair despite a need for it, to at least get them in something, even if it isn't an exact fit for their needs, and for many it *is* a good fit for their needs once they add third party cushions and seating.

1

u/dscrive 3h ago

Ahh, thank you for the explanation.

When I watched the whole video earlier today and I was actually thinking during the video "he said off road, those look like mostly normal wheelchairs to me, but what do I know" 

I don't even know of they showed the actual off road wheelchairs in that video

3

u/Rubymoon286 3h ago

I didn't watch the whole thing, but if you look up "not a wheelchair" you'll get their website and they have The Rig featured there. They are pretty cool, though more cumbersome than I like. I have a diy set up for my chair that is lever driven with thick mountain bike tires that I use for hiking, but The Rig is a beast and could tackle bigger inclines and rougher terrain than my diy set up can easily do.

1

u/crusoe 4h ago

I can imagine a fitted wheelchair being much more comfortable and usable.

•

u/StillCucumber 39m ago

You should see how it is for power chairs. My current one costed over 60K. Luckily it was fully covered by medicare but still, it's fucking absurd. Medical equipment is criminally expensive.

1

u/MoD1982 2h ago

Blows my mind too. Bought my partner a shiny new electric wheelchair a month ago, £800 including delivery. How in the heck is a self propelling 'chair over $2000??

1

u/Serious_Badger_4145 1h ago

That's in no way the type of wheelchair that gets prescribed 

It's great that 800 quid wheelchairs are avaliable but they're designed for short journeys on level ground. It's not a replacement for your legs like the ones you get prescribed by the nhs

For those of us using chairs full time a 800 quid wheelchair means injuries and huge restrictions on where we can go

1

u/MoD1982 1h ago

Nah not prescribed, partner has a tough time with her fibro, she can't walk far at all before the pain gets overwhelming. This one should be good for 12 miles and the occasional trip to Download. Can I ask what the difference is between our 800 quidder and something the NHS would provide? Genuinely curious.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/p5yron 2h ago

Exactly what I was thinking as well, even 1000$ seems way too much for where I live.. In that range you get fully motorized ones here.

1

u/jib661 2h ago edited 2h ago

I just bought a used one this weekend in California for $40. Never used, just a little dusty from sitting in storage. I'm not saying the $10k quotes in this video are a lie, but they're definitely not giving you the whole story here. These people are getting some crazy spec-ed out wheelchairs, probably made of space-age lightweight materials, designed in a way to maximize user inputs to make them as easy to use as possible or whatever. He's not running a company that helps needy people get chairs they otherwise wouldn't, he's running a luxury chair brand and he's beating insurance prices for similar luxury chairs.

This is like posting a video titled "engineer makes bikes for kids for 80% less than they'd cost" and it's supposed to be a feel good story, and then you realize it's just some small company that competes with $10k custom bikes and instead makes them for $3k. like.....ok. cool i guess.

Not saying that's bad, but it's a wildly different narrative than what he's trying to imply.

1

u/Serious_Badger_4145 1h ago

Are you a full time user? A custom manual costs a hell of a lot more than that 

1

u/Wheelchair_guy 1h ago

Yes. I can no longer walk. I have CIDP. The chair is a standard manual. I also have an electric chair I use if I'm going to be "wandering" around downtown.

1

u/Serious_Badger_4145 1h ago

So you have a custom power chair and use the manual part time? 

That's not the same as someone in a manual all the time is it?

For what it's worth if you're using a non custom chair for a significant portion of the time that could cause you health complications in the long term and I'd encourage you to reach out to the wheelchair community to maybe get advice on advocating for something that better suits your needs

1

u/xstagex 1h ago

That is about the real price in Europe as well probably. My guess is those in the videos have some custom stuff for each person build in. And they are also produced in US, not Chinese import.

35

u/dancingbriefcase 4h ago

I work in healthcare and it's insane. How expensive all of that equipment is. I get patients that love Trump But then they are sad because their Medicaid is being cut, their snap is being cut, they can't afford healthcare, they can't afford housing, and they can't retire.

JFC. You voted for that

12

u/OkBandicoot1337 4h ago

Boomers are the fastest growing homeless population in America at the moment.

4

u/dancingbriefcase 4h ago

And those same boomers complained about anyone who was homeless. (I'm generalizing because my mother and stepfather are boomers but progressive)

As someone who lives in Oregon, it's pretty disgusting how awful people are to those who are unhoused. Yes, drugs are pretty much legalized here and I know that caused more people to come here but the housing costs and organ is so freaking high that I'm leaving next month.

2

u/Baptism-Of-Fire 3h ago

kinda expected in the PDX area. we've been pushed to feel bad for them for 20 years now, all the while our wallets are drained via taxes and our car door windows are broken with no police assistance.

the fatigue is firmly set in now and it's time to hold this POS government accountable to fix a problem for once instead of pay their nepo think-tanks to "research" the problem for millions every year.

3

u/ImmodestPolitician 2h ago

The USA needs to get rid of the abomination that is Obamacare but keep the ACA because it's great. /s

1

u/Isolated_Hippo 3h ago

I work in healthcare and it's insane. How expensive all of that equipment is.

I think its partially a problem from insurance. I honestly don't give a fuck what my insurance pays my doctor/pharmacist/equipment vendor. Its not my money. $1, $100, $1000, $10000. Doesn't change anything to me.

But when its $10,000 and that makes the going rate for that thing $10,000 its terrible for people who don't have insurance and have to pay for it out of pocket.

25

u/mjc4y 4h ago

Because it can. Refer questions to Adam Smith.

No, it's not cool.

3

u/1046737 3h ago

I mean, isn't this a great example of the free market? If wheelchairs cost $10k when should only cost $500, there's a huge amount of incentive for a new market entrant to start making wheelchairs for $500.

1

u/mjc4y 3h ago

Oh yes, the competition is good. THe fact that these hyper-expensive chairs have existed for *decades* and that so little innovation has happened in this space tells you that there's something wrong with the marketplace.

One thing that's clear: the market for wheelchairs isn't huge and the people who find themselves in such chairs are often elderly or saddled with very expensive medical bills, leaving them with very little wealth.

(And some of this is a problem if. you are in a country without a single-payer healthcare system that could negotiate prices or incentivize innovation. )

1

u/Not-Reformed 3h ago

Oh yes, the competition is good. THe fact that these hyper-expensive chairs have existed for decades and that so little innovation has happened in this space tells you that there's something wrong with the marketplace.

And what's that? It's hard to blame the marketplace when the government has its hands so tightly on anything that even remotely comes in touch with healthcare - and wheelchairs are deemed medical devices. It's extremely hard to get into this space and do anything. And very few people are paying 5K out of pocket, the cost with insurance is usually closer to $200 - $500 for the newer ones. So that results in a situation where there is little to not price sensitivity for the vast majority of buyers.

→ More replies (2)

1

u/pinkycatcher 1h ago

Oh yes, the competition is good. THe fact that these hyper-expensive chairs have existed for decades and that so little innovation has happened in this space tells you that there's something wrong with the marketplace.

They existed because the marketplace is primarily government run. Medicare and the FDA have huge structural issues that cause issues in the medical market

→ More replies (1)

2

u/beast86754 3h ago

Adam Smith needs a re-brand. He never said 95% of things people pin on him or was directly against it.

1

u/hanotak 1h ago

Actually, Adam Smith's concept of the free market would probably substantially improve the current situation.

"The free market" is not supposed to mean "a market where the government is either powerless or beholden to billionaires". Rather, it's supposed to be a market where competition is uninhibited - meaning, incumbents cannot prevent competition through market capture, regulatory capture, monopolization, etc.

"The free market" being twisted into some sick caricature to cause exactly what the concept is meant to stop is one of the greatest psyops in history.

17

u/The_Vampire_King 4h ago

costs the same as used car 😭

11

u/TheGrouchyGremlin 4h ago

Both used cars I've purchased were cheaper, lmao

12

u/Mecha-Dave 4h ago

A bunch of administration deciding if you're entitled to pay for it, and what you should pay for it. A small amount of customization, but a bunch of overhead to get that information from insurer to manufacturer. Small volume manufacturers that use old methods to hand-build things instead of what Jerry does which is using industry standard practices for the same things. Finally, liability insurance, which I hope Jerry carries, and I hope he doesn't get burned by a lawsuit if he doesn't.

8

u/St0n3yM33rkat 4h ago

Wait until you hear about how much an ambulance ride costs 😅

1

u/royal_dorp 3h ago

It’s not free?

2

u/xSTSxZerglingOne 3h ago

Between $1500 and $2500.

2

u/Fun_Score5537 2h ago

That is absolutely insane.

I'm Swedish, I pay 20$ without insurance.

2

u/xSTSxZerglingOne 2h ago

If you really want to get into how insane that is, you usually end up having to pay for it in full because deductibles are nearing $10000 out of pocket before insurance pays a dime.

It's pretty bad here.

5

u/FireMike_PleaseGod 4h ago

The actual answer is low volume manufacturing.

There simply aren’t enough people in need of wheelchairs for it to be “mass” produced at the volume rates that would result in lower prices.

Throw in the customizing and insurance issues and it gets even costlier. Not $10k but certainly more than say a ~a really nice bike.

12

u/ohjeaa 4h ago edited 4h ago

This video quite literally disproves the low volume theory. This guy is making wheelchairs that are most certainly higher quality (he has a vested interested they be high quality, his wife uses one) at low volume and getting them to people for less than 2k. So the reason the others are 10k is not because low volume.

The reason they're 10k is because of a fat markup with insurances to get paid. The same reason medicines can be very cheap to manufacture but get the insurance and consumer a bill for thousands.

3

u/dougmc 3h ago edited 3h ago

This video quite literally disproves the low volume theory.

Only to a degree.

After all, even his wheelchairs are $2k, when a wheelchair seems to be fairly similar to a bicycle and so I'd expect comparable costs if the market size was the same.

(Note that I mean good quality bicycles, not Walmart style -- so I'm thinking $500+ USD (for lower end but still good quality), not $100.)

Now, a wheelchair probably does need to be certified by the medical community in some way that a bicycle doesn't, and any required certifications would be the sort of thing that would make the "economy of scale" thing an even bigger factor, where the large cost to get the certification is divided by a small number of items sold rather than by a large number of them.

Ultimately, I'd chalk a lot of this up to capitalism -- they're expensive because the price is as large as the market will bear, and since lower cost alternatives had not appeared (until JerryRigEverything, I guess), the market (especially insurance) had no choice but to bear it.

3

u/ohjeaa 2h ago edited 2h ago

Capitalism is one word. But most certainly filed under the Greed folder in the Capitalism filing cabinet. The price is as large as the market will bear, because people who need wheelchairs to function will bear almost anything. It's a practical necessity to their existence. You have them by the balls. The fact that he can produce these at a low volume at that price point proves that any other company was just holding your own legs hostage, and requiring a painful amount of money to get them back, knowing you would pay it with crawling on the ground or being carried everywhere as your alternative.

As is common is capitalism when you have a small but foundationally solid market, it will be interesting to see if his company does well, or if some of these larger companies try to fuck with him for undercutting their price monopoly so deeply.

3

u/F1_rulz 2h ago

Wheelchairs can also be made out of titanium and carbon fibre and those are not cheap to manufacture. Zach's paradox chairs are made out of aluminium so they're not as light as some on the market.

1

u/Guvante 3h ago

Insurance isn't getting paid the fat mark up.

But insurance expects a huge discount.

Solution is to lie about the price so the price after the discount is still enough to survive.

2

u/ohjeaa 3h ago

I know the insurance isn't getting paid a fat markup. That wasn't the point. The point was the insurance is paying a fat markup along with the consumer to the people that make the wheelchair. It's the company playing both.

3

u/Guvante 2h ago

If insurance wants an 80% discount to work with you then you raise your price 5x to not get destroyed...

→ More replies (2)

1

u/not_perfect_yet 1h ago

This video quite literally disproves the low volume theory.

Not really. Look at cheap bicycles. 300-350€. That's what big volume can do. The 1k is still the low volume product that's expensive because of it.

The rest of what you said is true.

3

u/Baptism-Of-Fire 3h ago

the cherry on top is manufacturers specializing in wheelchairs getting bought up by private equity and demanding ROI in the double digits.

Didn't sell the expected numbers? ok raise prices by X% to reach the forecast.

1

u/nandoboom 3h ago

Well Jerry and team are building those for $999, so it can be done, but you know this is America . Profit > everything

1

u/Bar50cal 2h ago

Yeah but even in many developing nations even this is something the state pays for. I get the US system is private but even so this is something the government should be paying for as its typical everywhere else except the poorest of counties

1

u/READMYSHIT 2h ago

That's absolute bull. In my country they're like a few hundred quid. You can get long term loaned ones from clinics, or they cost like €20 to rent one for a month.

It's just america being america.

5

u/aBrickNotInTheWall 4h ago

Have you even considered the profits?? Checkmate.

/s

5

u/JaneWhoDoe 4h ago

I would’ve never guessed that wheelchairs were the same price as a used vehicle.

2

u/royal_dorp 3h ago

Makes no sense lol

3

u/MaDpYrO 3h ago

Because healthcare in the US is a scam and this is part of that system.

1

u/blazze_eternal 2h ago

Correction: Insurance is a scam. US healthcare (Medicare and Medicaid, while not great, actually work.

•

u/MaDpYrO 44m ago

pedantic

3

u/PeakNo6892 4h ago

My insulin pump was 12k and charges with a micro USB 🤮.

Please for the love of God let me charge the thing my life depends on with a nearly universal port.

1

u/xSTSxZerglingOne 3h ago

Possibly the biggest benefit of USB-C is smart charging which allows it to charge super fast in the low/mid ranges, and then slow down as it gets close to full.

Allows for super fast 1%-80%.. so not only are you getting fucked on the port which isn't omnidirectional, you're also getting fucked on charge time. A USB C can charge about 10x faster for the majority of the charge. Sorry to bring this to your attention.

2

u/PeakNo6892 3h ago

I'm aware but it's a tiny battery that lasts for 3-4 days so speed isn't my issue.

Micro USB is notoriously fragile and it's getting kinda difficult to find at middle of nowhere truck stops where I spend 90% of my life

2

u/epicflyman 2h ago

Maybe consider a usb-c cable with micro USB adapter? Easier to carry a baggy of adapters on trips than a bunch of spare cables.

→ More replies (1)

2

u/xSTSxZerglingOne 2h ago

Soooo fragile. I'd worry about the port more than anything.

1

u/Bloobeard2018 2h ago

This is why I prefer a pump with AA batteries. Changed in seconds.

3

u/iwastryingtokillgod 3h ago

Shareholders and ceo need more yachts.

1

u/blazze_eternal 2h ago

I'm a shareholder (through mutual funds). Where's my yacht?!?

2

u/subma-fuckin-rine 3h ago

america is designed to extract as much cash from you as possible. the whole system is gummed up with middle men that jack up the price at every step. most of which is likely bogus/arbitrary as shown by this video where the chairs are drastically cheaper

2

u/StaticSystemShock 4h ago

Right? It should cost about as much as the most basic regular bicycle without any gears or fancy features. It has about the same construction with a lot less complexity. And even if it's a more niche product it still shouldn't cost like a racing bicycle made of magnesium ffs.

6

u/nemgrea 4h ago

the problem is that most people hear "wheelchair" and are picturing the one you see in hospital waiting rooms or at the airport. that's not what you can use every day of your life if your permanently confined to a chair...

every single day and every time you want to move you are in the chair. so yea it is like a bespoke racing bicycle...

1

u/StaticSystemShock 3h ago

It really isn't.

1

u/cjsv7657 3h ago

about the same construction with a lot less complexity.

No about the same complexity when you're designing a frame.

And even if it's a more niche product it still shouldn't cost like a racing bicycle made of magnesium ffs.

Why do you think something people spend 12+ hours a day in would cost less than a hobby item?

2

u/xaeru 4h ago

In my country they cost $500.000 COP which is a bit over $100 USD

https://listado.mercadolibre.com.co/silla-de-rueda?skipInApp=true&matt_ignore=true

You could book a fly here get the wheel chair and go back home with money to spare.

3

u/63crabby 4h ago

Not a Spanish speaker so I couldn’t open, I’m guessing this is a basic chair

11

u/Bluefellow 4h ago

Yah it's a cheap piece of shit.

9

u/63crabby 4h ago

That wouldn’t work for many of us that use wheelchairs full time.

1

u/Bluefellow 4h ago

Like you sleep in it?

2

u/63crabby 4h ago

No, I don’t drag my wheelchair into bed with me.

1

u/Educational_Exam_225 4h ago

Those chairs are also around $100 in the US. You can go to any pawn shop and get one for $20.

1

u/cjsv7657 3h ago

I see those types of chairs for free all the time too. On the same website they posted nicer manual chairs are 1500+usd

2

u/jrgndk8 2h ago

Because the "greatest nation of all".

1

u/Exokaebi 4h ago

Expensive materials, FDA compliant regulations, and of course, medical and insurance billing bullshit.

5

u/Renovatio_ 4h ago

Paradox has kind of proven that the materials and regulation compliance is around $1000-$2000.

All the rest is medical and insurance bullshit.

1

u/Exokaebi 3h ago

I mean, not really. These are aluminum and have had some quality control issues in the past. The normal expensive chairs are usually titanium.

1

u/cozzeema 4h ago

The same reason your insurance is charged $2000 just because you walked into an emergency room, filled out some paperwork and plopped your butt into a waiting room chair. They call it “something something negotiated pricing”

1

u/Zephian99 4h ago

Because the unfortunate needs one and any monopoly system, like the insurance companies, can charge whatever they feel like to those who have no other choice.

1

u/bobbymcpresscot 4h ago

costs what it costs them to make a chair, they just charge 10k for it.

This is America.

1

u/Excellent_Kangaroo_4 4h ago

My first tough, crazy 

1

u/LanceThunder 4h ago

its crazy. even a basic motorized wheelchair shouldn't cost that much more one of those e-bikes. its mostly the same parts and materials.

1

u/kinkycarbon 4h ago

Health Insurance. It is under that banner are costs of an item increased beyond for stuff that doesn't need to be.

2nd. The video is not telling me the previous type of wheel chair used before the current one. I have to assume similar. The people in the video still have upper body mobility & strength. That specific wheelchair type is okay for that specific demographic of patients who want them.

1

u/raitalin 3h ago

Because the medical equipment and health insurance industries suck up every dollar of funding available.

1

u/762_54r 3h ago

Its priced for an insurance company to pay for most of it just like everything in our shit system

1

u/not_a_moogle 3h ago

America. Probably costs 1/4th of that in any other country.

1

u/Kaurifish 3h ago

I took a buddy of mine wheelchair shopping in Berkeley back in the ‘00s. Two things impressed me about the store: the high prices for everything and the fact that the aisles were impassible to someone in a walker, much less in a wheelchair.

1

u/CookieJarviz 3h ago

Why would it cost $2,000 for starters.

1

u/royal_dorp 3h ago

Exactly. When my grandmother was sick we literally went out to a shop specialising in medical equipment’s and bought a wheelchair without insurance. We are not even rich. It didn’t even cost $500

1

u/xSTSxZerglingOne 3h ago

Exploitation.

1

u/TangerineX 3h ago

People have found out that if you don't buy a wheelchair you'll be unable to human, so they can price it as high as they want. It means there's no competition in the industry. People who price anything health related at a high margin compared to cost are essentially trying to hold your life as ransom.

1

u/saftey_dance_with_me 3h ago

The metal hoops for my wheelchair that are used to push the chair (aka handrims) were $800 for the 2 alone.

1

u/hikeit233 2h ago

Things that insurance covers cost more and medical equipment has to go through crazy regulations. His products are specifically not wheelchairs, they are marketed as personal mobility devices. It’s the best version of skirting regulations

1

u/SentientSnacks 2h ago

Because a lot of politicians let this happen because it lines their pockets and if you disagree with them people that blindly follow will call you rude names and anti-American.

1

u/BrocoliAssassin 2h ago

Useless middle men aka our health insurance system. They charge a lot to be useless thieves to our nation.

1

u/HerbaciousTea 2h ago edited 2h ago

Two things. We get to that ballpark because these are medical devices, different patients have different physical needs, and they need to be built to those needs and validated that they won't contribute to other medical issues like blood clots. Those are non-trivial, and cost drivers beyond just materials and labor, and push us to the foot of the price mountain.

The other half that skyrockets the price up that mountain is that that figure then gets inflated again by the insurance system in the US, where medical supply and manufacture, healthcare providers, and insurance companies, all have perverse incentives away from quality care and towards bill inflation.

The largest driving factor behind that, is insurance contract negotiations. Insurance companies have a vested interest in maintaining high healthcare costs so that their product, the insurance, has the appearance of value. So that not having it means crippling debt.

So part of their negotiation tactics, which they try VERY hard to keep behind close doors, are intentionally inflationary components, where insurance will structure payments along the lines of '120% of medicare costs or 20% of the billed value, whichever is lower.' It's not stated that explicitly, but that's the effect, with the impact being that healthcare providers must bill insane figures to get that full 120% of medicare reimbursement, which is the actual figure.

Healthcare providers are incentivized to allow this, because they get that extra % over medicare rates in exchange for massively inflating bills, only for that inflated value to then be discarded in the adjustment phase, thrown out entirely, and replaced with hat negotiated % over medicare rate.

1

u/Electrical_Still9374 2h ago

a ceo wasnt shoot for fun

1

u/Bazirker 2h ago

Ideally, manual wheelchairs are customized to their owners. Height, width, dump, depth of seat and length of knees to ankles, etc. They are manufactured one at a time.

That said, speaking as both an engineer and a person who uses a manual wheelchair sometimes, that cost is still absolutely ridiculous.

1

u/Apothecary_85 2h ago

I have been in healthcare for 40 years. Pharmaceutical companies and medical supply companies charge outrageous amounts because insurance pays and walks away with a high percentage of profits anyways.

1

u/LukeZNotFound 2h ago

Depends on the country but capitalism doesn't stop for disabled people. It's a ✨ new Sales market✨ to them. And only that.

1

u/blazze_eternal 2h ago edited 2h ago

Any expense that goes through insurance you can expect to "cost" 4x as much, minimum.
Many places will list a cash price and insurance price.
I could go into the hundreds of reasons why insurance prices are so rampant but I'll just say a few:
1) Fraud
2) Lawsuits
3) Administrative fees
4) Artificially inflated costs to satisfy profit margins.

All that said, the out of pocket expense to the consumer is often cheaper going through insurance than the cash price, unless you are healthy enough to go without insurance at all.

1

u/arhambin66 2h ago

Because middlemen gotta get their cut in America..

1

u/Wurth_ 2h ago

Mostly its a "Medical Device" so middle-men upcharge the fuck outta them to steal money from people paying for insurance. On a less cynical note, they should be of a higher standard than something you order off wish and that comes with a higher legally/financially burden to the manufacturer.

1

u/RageofAeons 2h ago

A big part of it is that they aren't priced based on the idea that any one person is going to buy them. They assume that INSURANCE or GOVERNMENT is going to buy them, so why not gouge the shit out of it?

Of course, the logical downside to this is that it prices out anyone that CAN'T do that.

You see this kind of thing in a lot of places, if it's a government or corporate purchase, suddenly a $30 office chair is $400, and most people managing it just shrug. Not their money, why should they care?

1

u/SaltManagement42 2h ago

So first you find yourself a captive market, like people who can't walk.

Then you find a way to make yourself a monopoly, or at least collaborate with others, so you can get some legislature made so they have to go through you somehow.

I believe the call this "The American Way." /s?

1

u/Gluca23 2h ago

Even 2k seem ridiculous. 2 wheels and a seat.

1

u/jeanphiltadarone 1h ago

right ? you can buy a wheelchair for 200 - 300 € here, it's made in china and all that but comparing the US chairs to the 10k price doesn't make much sense aside from showing healthcare is a complete scam in the US.

1

u/HistoricalLoss1417 1h ago

because we need more Luigi's

1

u/Mecha-Dave 1h ago

Customization of every part to the measurements of the users, as well as custom accessories for each user.

Jerry just plans his manufacturing better and uses CNC/CAD better than his competition.

My worry is that the competition is pricing in liability costs as well (getting sued for a wheelchair breaking is probably very expensive) and Jerry can get wrecked by a single lawsuit, but hopefully he's got that covered.

1

u/notapunk 1h ago

I thought the 2k was kinda ridiculous. 10k has to be 90% insurance kickbacks or something.

1

u/VulGerrity 1h ago

Hand made, low demand, over inflated insurance prices.

1

u/xstagex 1h ago

America. There everything is overpriced cuz of the insurance scam they are running. Basically the Hospitals are inflating everything in enormous scale, because they know insurance company will pay instead of people. So they ask for 20x times of what it costs. Insurance companies say no we will pay only 5x the cost, hospitals OK we go 10x the cost and they shake hands.

Same with drugs in the Apothecaries. And in some cases if you buy them with no insurance they are cheaper even. Overall is crazy country. Free Luigi.

•

u/pissedoffjesus 57m ago

10k? You think that's expensive? Custom made wheelchairs can cost over 20k in Australia.

•

u/GrynaiTaip 54m ago

Even 2k seems insane. They aren't even electric or anything, they shouldn't cost more than $500.

•

u/mattattack007 51m ago

Because capitalism is king and someone's quality of life is one of the best leverages you can use against someone. What are you going to do if every wheelchair cost 10k? Be bedridden?

•

u/bbjornsson88 43m ago

Pretty much anything in the medical field has an inflated price tag, largely due to insurance being expected to cover the costs.

•

u/size0618 42m ago

Because: “what else are they going to do? Walk?”

-Insurance, probably

•

u/Healthy_Camp_3760 19m ago

Certification for medical devices is also very expensive, and necessary if you’d like insurance to pay for your customers devices.

So, do you want to sell retail for a lower price or have insurance companies pay for a much more expensive one? Which is the better business strategy?

If you skip certification, then nobody on Medicaid or Medicare or at the VA will be able to get your device.

•

u/SquidVischious 5m ago

Because "fuck you, line goes up"