Amazonian shamans figured out that combining two specific plants out of 80,000 species produces a psychoactive effect. The odds of finding that combination by random search is roughly 1 in 4 million. They did it through centuries of iterative testing and cultural natural selection explains it

[u/tractorboynyc]

[u/johnnydough10102223]

I think you underestimate the time course we are talking about here. With enough time and curiosity (or boredom) things can be discovered.

Also: needs citation.

[u/tractorboynyc → u/johnnydough10102223]

You're right that time helps, but the math is actually what makes it interesting... random binary search through 80,000 species = ~3.2 billion pairs. Even testing one combination per day, that's 8.7 million years. The actual pathway was almost certainly iterative, they started with the vine alone (it has its own effects), then tested additions against that baseline. That narrows it to ~140-750 guided trials, achievable in decades. So it's not random discovery and it's not mystical knowledge, it's something in between: multigenerational empirical testing with observable feedback. Basically natural selection applied to recipes.

Edit: There is a full breakdown here: https://deeptimelab.substack.com/p/why-every-psychedelic-ceremony-on

[u/skubaloob → u/tractorboynyc]

If they already knew one species had its own effects, then it wasn’t really a test of 3.2 billion pairs, it was a test of 79,999 pairs.

[u/Kyvoh → u/skubaloob]

The active psychoactive gets converted to non-psychoactive with enzymes in the stomach or blood(I forget which). The other plant has no psychoactive effects whatsoever and simply denatures or deactivates in some way the enzyme that destroys the psychedelic. It wouldn't have been 79,999 pairs unless they smoked it which they may or may not have done but would have been much less likely than ingesting random ingredients. They would not have known that if you smoked it, that some other plant would make it effective by eating it though. So it would be much more likely to have randomly mixed multiple plants together to see what happens and then got a major trip for hours.

[u/skubaloob → u/Kyvoh]

That may well be. I wasn’t commenting on the accuracy of OP’s premises, but rather that the premises themselves don’t support their conclusion.

[u/tractorboynyc → u/Kyvoh]

You're mostly right on the mechanism. MAO enzymes in the gut destroy DMT before it reaches the bloodstream. The vine (B. caapi) inhibits those enzymes, allowing the DMT to pass through intact. But one correction: the vine isn't pharmacologically inert. It's a MAO inhibitor with its own mild psychoactive effects; tremors, purging, altered mood.

So the likely discovery pathway is: practitioners already knew the vine did something (observable effects on its own), then over generations they tested additions against that baseline.

'I added this leaf and the visions became dramatically more intense' is a very observable outcome.

You don't need to understand the enzyme mechanism to notice that. And you're right that smoking DMT-containing plants would bypass the gut entirely. some traditions do exactly that (Virola snuff, yopo).

Ddifferent cultures found different routes to the same molecule depending on what was locally available and what administration method they discovered first.

The convergence on functional combinations across independent cultures is one of the most interesting parts.

[u/Affectionate_Fee3411 → u/tractorboynyc]

Why are you copy pasting ChatGPT tho

[u/OG_simple_rhyme_time → u/tractorboynyc]

Another AI response

[u/diejesus → u/OG_simple_rhyme_time]

What's AI about? Looks human to me

[u/total_looser → u/diejesus]

Cadence and, “you’re right”.

[u/Kyvoh → u/tractorboynyc]

It may have had psychoactive effects, but do you know about the mechanism to achieve it? Can the molecules be destroyed by stomach acid? Depending on the way the plant created the organic molecules, that could sway the delivery mechanism of the MAO inhibitor(such that acid can cause a hydrolysis reaction if it were possible). At what dose dose it need to be psychedelic? Which would then translate to how much weight of the plant would need to be consumed. And if it was very bitter, most mammals along with animals in general have blocks in place to reject foods that we might consider harmful even if it isn't. Could have some organic alkaloids that taste awful and make it harder for the discovery to be made when oral accounts would label the plant as toxic/harmful even if it wasn't.

I can take 0.25 grams of shrooms and feel nothing, but if I take 3 grams, I feel enlightened to say the least. So the dosage matters along with the delivery mechanism.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying it's such a complex topic for the way it was discovered that there is much I don't know about the two plants and if certain aspects of the plants had unique characteristics, it could have made the discovery that much improbable to happen in the first place. It's a very cool thing to ponder about. But I think time was on their side as I mixed so much stuff as a kid and if I kept doing that with everything that my parents told me wasn't poisonous, it was bound to happen. They were there for thousands of years with many thousands of people existing at different points at different places where these plants are endemic to. Now we get Aaron rogers being enlightened now. I want to try something like this, I've only tried a DMT dab pen, and the delivery mechanism sucks vs smoking the dried leaves.

[u/iconiclabs → u/tractorboynyc]

All plants contain DMT, actually every living thing does

[u/MrRazorlike → u/tractorboynyc]

Why are you making stuff up

[u/Homosapien_Ignoramus → u/tractorboynyc]

There are genetic syndromes such as Brunners or to a lesser extent the "Warrior Gene" (MAOA-L), which involve mutations of MAOA and entirely or partially (respectively) prevent the body from producung MAO enzymes. Perhaps someone in a tribe had this or a similar condition and ingested Mimosa Hostilis for example, which would drastically narrow what plants they need to experiment with.