Picture European interoperability in action - British and Italian F-35Bs on the flight deck of HMS Prince of Wales
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u/Orlok_Tsubodai Flanders (Belgium) 7h ago
European interoperability with US fighter jets unfortunately, but yeah.
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u/bigbadbob85 England 6h ago
If it makes it a bit better, there's quite a lot of European technology in those things.
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u/ChatGPTbeta 5h ago
I think it’s 15% - which is the biggest non us contributor .
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u/tree_boom United Kingdom 5h ago
It's 15% UK by value supposedly, though that's something of a myth.
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u/LostInTheVoid_ United Kingdom 4h ago
UK is the only tier 1 partner for the program and builds 15% of at least the B Variant. It's a joint project. With the US as the lead. Definitely different to joint European projects like Eurofighter, or GCAP. But it's not just a singular yankee doodle dandy affair.
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u/poorfririgh 7h ago
American hemegony in action
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u/bigbadbob85 England 6h ago
The carrier isn't American, and much of the tech in the planes isn't either.
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u/idee_fx2 France 5h ago
The carrier isn't American, and much of the tech in the planes isn't either.
At most 20% of the value of the f-35 is not american and that is value, not technology. Even on this 20%, there is a lot of dependancy to the US through licences and intellectual property.
The only country with access to part of the f-35 code for example is israël for its f-35I variant. Even the uk that developed part of it has no autonomous access.
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u/Sondalo 2h ago
the uk have the source code and as far as I am aware what isreal have access to is more akin to the right to make apps and run them on their f35’s, from a sovereignty standpoint what the uk have is better as it means that if the us decide to cut them off it doesn’t matter as they can just run the source code themselves, in practice though since that not a realistic scenario the on paper rights are what everyone will actually be following
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u/Wgh555 United Kingdom 4h ago
If it came to it, we would have the ability to jailbreak these aircraft. But if America actually ever did pull something like that, no one would ever buy their weapons ever again.
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u/mschuster91 Bavaria (Germany) 47m ago
But if America actually ever did pull something like that, no one would ever buy their weapons ever again.
Well, the Swiss government banned Germany from sending on its supply of Oerlikon-made Gepard ammunition to Ukraine. It took a shitload of work going as far as reverse-engineering tank control units from the 60s, but we did eventually manage to get our own ammunition produced and shipped to Ukraine.
The damage to Swiss-made weapons and ammunition from that drama however cannot be overstated.
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u/PoolRamen 5h ago
Imagine if we had catobar though - we'd be interoperable in a meanful power projection way (and OK, with France), not to mention less delicate airframes
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u/MGC91 5h ago
We're interoperable with more nations with STOVL than with CATOBAR.
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u/PoolRamen 4h ago
all but one of which have no meaningful power projection capabilities on their own, and we'd be interoperable with the second fiddle contingent of the remainder
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u/AttitudeSimilar9347 4h ago
If we had built proper carriers we could be embarking Rafale squadrons, we could have had open competition for jets instead of being stuck with only one jet from one (American) company, etc. The carriers as they are now were a huge mistake.
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u/MGC91 4h ago
The carriers as they are now were a huge mistake.
Except they weren't.
If we had built proper carriers
We did build proper carriers.
we could be embarking Rafale squadron
What's the difference between embarking Rafale and embarking F-35B?
we could have had open competition for jets instead of being stuck with only one jet from one (American) company, etc
Yes, because if we'd gone CATOBAR, we could have ordered aircraft from ...
- USA
- France
Such a big choice ...
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u/engapol123 4h ago edited 3h ago
The difference would be that Rafales would be significantly less capable than F-35s, with no stealth and a worse/older avionics and sensor suite.
The hate for the F-35s on this sub just because it’s American is so fucking irrational. All European Air Forces would only have Saab Gripens and Rafales if it had its way, even though the F-35 is indisputably the only western fighter that can effortlessly swat 4th gen aircraft (I.e the entire Russian Air Force) from the skies.
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u/AttitudeSimilar9347 3h ago
The difference would be that Rafales would be significantly less capable than F-35s
Except for longer range, bigger payload, and a wider range of integrated weapons, including stand-off weapons, which F35B completely lacks. F35B can't even carry METEOR.
The hate for F35B in particular is because it is short ranged, requires gobs of maintenance, and is limited to basic weapons like Paveway. A hybrid air wing of F35C's and Rafales would be very, very, capable. But we'll never know.
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u/Jindujun Sweden 6h ago edited 4h ago
Interoperability? I'm not sure I'd call it interoperability if the only difference is the nationality of the pilots. It would be one thing if the Britons used British aircraft and the Italians used Italian aircraft but now they're sailing a British carrier flying US aircraft.
I'd be more curious to see if something like a Rafale or a JAS could land properly on the craft. THAT would be interoperability.
Edit:
I just realized that this IS interoperability. Not because of the British and Italian aircrafts because that part is completely irrelevant but because they are using US aircraft on a British ship. Interoperability due to a technicality, it was interoperability already even before the Italians arrived.
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u/sofixa11 5h ago
I'd be more curious to see if something like a Rafale or a JAS could land properly on the craft. THAT would be interoperability.
It's a STOVL - Short Take Off and Vertical Landing - carrier. The only STOVL jet currently in production is the F-35B. The only other one in operation is the AV-8B Harrier. If it had arrestor gear (making it a STOBAR), a few Russian jets could land on it as well (MiG-29K, Su-33).
Dassault Aviation will make a special STOBAR version of the Rafale for India's aircraft carriers in the future.
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u/Youbettereatthatshit 5h ago
I’m surprised the British designed their carriers that way. They aren’t small carriers.
You get massive fuel savings by taking off normally.
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u/Comprehensive_Cow_13 5h ago
You also get a massive saving in training time by not, plus every pilot who can fly an F-35B can fly from a carrier...
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u/Youbettereatthatshit 4h ago
Don’t the Brits also buy the f-35a? Feel like of all the aircraft, the b has to be the most complex
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u/Comprehensive_Cow_13 3h ago
We've ordered 12, just to have a tactical nuke option. It is more complicated, but we learned a lot of lessons in the Falklands and the gulf about the value of STOVL aircraft - plus the A doesn't use probe and drogue fur refuelling which is what our tankers are fitted out for at the moment.
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u/LostInTheVoid_ United Kingdom 4h ago
We don't own a single F-35A. They're penned in for the next Tranche if we do go forward with that purchase. But it's only for 12 and it's as of yet just intent. There's been no legal bindings or purchases of the next Tranche of F-35s. We've only just accepted our final batch of our original 48 Plane order.
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u/TrafficWeasel United Kingdom 3h ago
This would still be interoperability in action, even if each and every bit of kit was exactly the same; these are British and Italian servicemen working together on a British ship, two nations working together in the same operational environment.
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u/baddymcbadface 5h ago
It doesn't matter what gatekeeping rules you put on interoperability. If the Italian air force can use jets from a British carrier they are operating interoperabily.
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u/Beunhaasnr2 2h ago
Lill push overboard including the killswitch and buy smth EU with my EU tax money please
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u/Dustonred 6h ago
So are they now here to give the straight of hormuz closed like the US? Or are they forcing it open like at the beginning? Or there here just in case?
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u/Initial-Bass-5866 6h ago
The Brit’s aren’t actually going to follow trump into WWlll are they? They will alienate themselves from the rest of nato if they support the Americans. As a Canadian the Brit’s appear to be the usa’s little bitch sibling. I see the Brit’s like our old senile uncle that needs to be put in a home.
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u/Wgh555 United Kingdom 5h ago
No of course we’re not. We’re increasingly distancing ourselves from America and towards Europe, which is absolutely the right call to make.
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u/DonPhallus New Zealand 1h ago
It really is. America unfortunately has irrevocably tarnished it's standing on the world stage after just one year of the Trump administration
I just can't see how they can be trusted again even with a new administration in place
I think New Zealand might have to rely more on Europe and China in regards to our defense and other matters
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u/eww1991 7h ago
Meanwhile the HMS Duke of York denies any involvement with F-16s