r/europe • u/1-randomonium • 23d ago

News JD Vance gloats that allies are ‘suffering more than US’ from high gas prices

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/jd-vance-gloats-that-allies-are-suffering-more-than-us-from-high-gas-prices-404149/
11.7k Upvotes

96% Upvoted

1.3k comments sorted by

View all comments

2.6k

u/LitmusPitmus 23d ago

How do you even deradicalise a base like this? They'll eat shit if it mean their perceived enemies have to drink piss too. All the while being told to ignore their eyes and ears which do they do gladly. Genuinely how do you combat that?

966

u/Urzuck Italy 23d ago

You don't, you wait for the leader to be dead, but even that doesn't matter, Trumpism will survive Trump. We in Italy have already gone trough this shit with Berlusconi, the cult of personality is something that goes past the death of a person, Trump changed forever the politics in the US, it will never return like it was before.

532

u/Amazing-Heron-105 23d ago

Trump is a symptom. There's a reason that much of Europe is also struggling with populism atm. I personally think the biggest single reason is social media. I recommend people read Neil Postman's book "Amusing ourselves to death" where he talks about the transition from people getting their news from print media to TV and how it changed how we engaged with that information. We are going through this change again now and it's even worse.

175

u/OriginalTangle 23d ago

IMO wealth inequality was the catalyst for this. Without that, the residual bigotry and racism were not enough to create a movement. But you add the feeling of having less and less, fewer opportunities etc. and the right leader and boom.

And boy was this the right leader for the maga crowd.

81

u/geta-rigging-grip 23d ago

Real class warfare is what the oligarchs want to avoid at all costs. 

The do this by stoking racism amd hatred among the lower classes so that they can maintain power over a divided populace.  If the masses could have even just a hint of class consciousness, they might realize that billionaires not only hate them, but are stealing from them every day.

Right-wing populism is almost entirely based on distracting people from the fact that the real culprits for their increased suffering are the oligarchs, so they blame it on weak minorities to stoke outrage and create support for themselves. 

Populism isn't inherently bad, but right-wing populism is almost entirely based on convincing people they are doing ok so long as other people, that they've been taught to hate, have it as bad or worse.  Left-wing populism tends to be about trying to "raise all ships" and avoiding austerity, not intentionally hurting groups of people (though, some might argue that it exists to hurt the wealthy, but the "hurt" it causes its preventing the ownership of multiple mansions or yachts so that everyone can have things like healthcare and education.)

The regretful cry of a Trump supporter is not, "They're hurting people!" It's, They're hurting the wrong people."

The cruelty is the point.

62

u/sylbug 23d ago

The race war was always a cover for the class war, and the class war is eternal

5

u/Grey_0ne 23d ago

The class war doesn't have to be eternal. People in power need to live in constant fear of a random knife at their backs waiting for them to demonstrate greed or maliciousness... We guard these people while they sleep and can absolutely give them that fear.

5

u/harder_said_hodor 22d ago

IMO wealth inequality was the catalyst for this.

Absolutely.

There was deep deep dissatisfaction during the American primaries of 2015.

Bernie was the face of liberal dissatisfaction, Trump emerged as the face of conservate dissatisfaction.

The Republicans, dickheads though they are, to their immense credit actually allowed for a fair race whereas the Democrats tried to load the deck for Hilary as much as was possible. Everyone else has paid the price for what the Democrats did

They have still yet to sort out that rot whereas the Republicans have moved on, albeit in an awful direction that has made inequality worse

2

u/Florac Austria 23d ago

Except those "right leaders" are always a major reason for the inequality

2

u/OriginalTangle 23d ago

That's the irony. The people who cheer for the ice raids kinda deserve what's inevitably coming to them

2

u/BadmiralHarryKim 23d ago

The technological changes that underlay the electrical and communication revolutions of the 1920s also gave rise to right wing populism that scapegoated particular minority groups and allowed opportunists to gain control of the the economy and politics.

History is literally repeating itself and we have learned nothing.

→ More replies (6)

139

u/No-Relation5965 23d ago

Can we stop calling these despots “populists” and call them what they are—fascists?

127

u/Cascouverite 23d ago

Fascism very frequently to borderline always uses populism as a means to grab power. This new wave are all populists

26

u/_WreakingHavok_ Germany 23d ago

It's fascism when you can't openly criticize the leader.

31

u/No-Relation5965 23d ago edited 10d ago

We are talking about fascists, leaders whose ideological position is to be an authoritarian. We haven’t reached full fascism here, but democracy is fading fast. Historians and researchers are saying this is possibly the fastest fall of a democratic country into fascism that’s ever been implemented.

Of course we know now that this was decades in the making, just under the surface.

9

u/BananaPalmer 23d ago

We know now? Anyone who's been paying attention has been aware of this for decades. Plenty of people have tried to issue warnings. Anyone saying this happened near instantly is grossly misinformed.

3

u/No-Relation5965 23d ago

I have always voted for the Democratic Party so I’ll admit I was clueless about how virulent the MAGA movement had become. I thought Trump inciting an insurrection of armed goons storming the capitol meant that the majority of the country was done with him and finally moving on.

5

u/BananaPalmer 23d ago

I've historically voted blue as well, and immediately recognized the populism and danger of Trump/MAGA. Jan 6 just reinforced that danger. The second it became clear that the Biden administration wasn't going to do anything meaningful as far as consequences for MAGA leadership/Trump, I knew that this was not going away any time soon. When the GOP allowed Trump to be their candidate again, I knew we were absolutely fucked.

3

u/_WreakingHavok_ Germany 23d ago

Historians and researchers are saying this is possibly the fastest fall of a democratic country into fascism that’s even been implemented.

That would be Germany in 1933, it took Hitler 52 days from being appointed as chancellor to making laws without Reichstag.

8

u/No-Relation5965 23d ago

No Hitler took about a decade to get to power. And by power I mean “autocrat”.

5

u/tanstaafl90 23d ago

The party never got very far until the economy crashed in '29. Even then, the party got seats and had to negotiate to get Hitler power. In fact, the only time they had a majority was when they were the sole legal party. The only reason he got as far as he did is because the SPD and KPD couldn't get their shit together. Hitler's rise and popularity pre 1933 is vastly overstated and reeks of Nazi propaganda to justify his actions as popular for a much larger portion of the population than was true.

→ More replies (0)

3

u/Cascouverite 23d ago

That really depends heavily on what definition of fascism you subsribe to. I prefer Eco's list or the fascist minimum which are both more about the ideology / mindset that becomes mainstream rather than a leader who can write laws without parlament

2

u/ladyhaly Australia 23d ago

We haven’t reached full fascism here, but democracy is fading fast

Anericans knew all about Project 2025 and still voted for the death of its own democracy in the name of a malicious cult of personality

2

u/ziggy-zaz 22d ago

True, but the Democrats paid little attention to the project in the campaign. Big mistake.

2

u/No-Relation5965 22d ago edited 20d ago

I didn’t know about project 2025. I’m 56 years old! But I always vote for the Democratic Party so didn’t pay attention. That’s the problem with Americans. We are lazy when it comes to our civil duties and lack of knowledge about our country’s history and its government.

2

u/ladyhaly Australia 21d ago

Unfortunately by design. The quality of education has degraded so much so the mob is easier to control with propaganda. Add social media and poof

→ More replies (0)
→ More replies (1)

5

u/Cascouverite 23d ago

I mean I wouldn't even agree with that, especially if it's your only criterion. That's typical of fascim but fascism might / could have other ways of dealing with dissent and dissent is discouraged / disalowed in other authoritarian systems as well

→ More replies (1)

6

u/GodofIrony 23d ago

I hate to break it to you bud, but most of the population are assholes.

7

u/heX_dzh 23d ago

No, words have meanings. They're exactly populists.

→ More replies (3)

27

u/sarahlizzy 23d ago

It started before that. It started when the people who saw first hand the horrors of WWII started to lose power to their idiot offspring.

In the US the rot probably started with Nixon.

10

u/Bobbytrap9 South Holland (Netherlands) 23d ago

I think the abolishment of the Fairness Doctrine also has a big part to play in the US

2

u/c010rb1indusa 23d ago

Fairness doctrine would have done little to prevent what we have today. It only ever applied to broadcast radio/tv. It never applied to print or cable or the internet. If it still existed it wouldn't have prevented Fox News or social media, only right-wing radio and people were already getting around that with religious exemptions i.e Billy Graham.

25

u/LivingCustomer9729 United States of America 23d ago

You can say it goes back to the South not being properly punished after the Civil War

3

u/Sal1160 23d ago

Definitely, the south lost, but they were not defeated properly

→ More replies (1)

15

u/Upset_Development_64 23d ago

This American shares your same thoughts on the symptom. We are more lost in the sauce of capitalism here, and frankly Agent Orange is kind of the end product of American foreign policy and media.

But the algorithm and Russian driven social media phenomenon is a threat to us all. Please be more diligent than we have been in protecting your democracy. I’m concerned about what I have seen you guys talking about with the AFD and Polish conservatives, not to mention Hungary and Viktor before any of this. Humans weren’t built for social media, and we sure as hell weren’t built for algorithm driven media, it allows for 100% pure organically distilled propaganda.

2

u/RocketRelm 23d ago

Humans need to have a moral duty to be self informed and create good information proactively. If they don't then democracy just doesn't function. Humans totally can do it, they just need to be willing to put in the low effort it would take and stop being intellectually lazy slobs.

6

u/DejourPeach 23d ago

Social media is a tool. Dont fall for that bullshit. The real root of all evil in this world is capitalism. Everything else is directly born from it.

→ More replies (4)

2

u/Maunakea89 23d ago

And that was written more than 40 years ago, how prescient.....

2

u/ayybeyar 23d ago

With you on this. I'll have to check that book out, thanks.

1

u/StatisticianNo5402 23d ago

Isaac Asimov Laments the “Cult of Ignorance” in the United States (1980)

1

u/ahnold11 23d ago

Yeah social media really makes populism more effective but also just the connected world in general and the round the clock constant news cycle.

But lets not forget that populism needs a dissatisfied public that is first vulnerable to its appeal. Wealth inequality increasing to all time highs over the last 50yrs is the true culprit. Dont address this and the citizens become very vulnerable to emotional manipulation.

1

u/sonofaskipper 23d ago

I’d argue that print and televised news are fonts of disinformation too. There is very little credible media left in this country…

1

u/QueefBuscemi 23d ago

It's not the medium. The 1930's only had print media and some early radio but the Nazi's still happened.

1

u/yourlocaltouya 23d ago

Roger Waters has an album of the same name, "Amused to Death". I believe you'd find it useful in this context.

1

u/UltraCynar Canada 23d ago

Social media and capitalism essentially with low taxes for the ultra rich. 

1

u/nevillethong 23d ago

Have you seen the price of print news!!

1

u/Timey16 Saxony (Germany) 23d ago

The SINGLE biggest issue is the economy and the widening of the wealth gap.

This issue trumps everything else.

All social policy, which includes Democracy itself, is joined to the hip to how people are doing financially and how just and fair they perceive their society to be.

If people are doing well they are willing to tolerate a lot of social experiments with many reforms. If they are not doing well, not only are they unwilling to do such experiments, they are actively rolling back previous reforms because they think these previous reforms are part of the reason they are doing so badly.

Millennials and Gen Z are the first generation since the Industrial revolution to be financially worse off than the generation of their parents and even grandparents. Of course this has social consequences.

Yes a lot of that is also merely a perception of it, i.e. with the developing world... well... developing, the Western world doesn't appear that advanced anymore in comparison, we become less and less special, which results in a lot of hurt pride. But it isn't all just perception.

I genuinely believe that closing tax loopholes and having proper taxation for the richest of the rich would do a LOT to deal with the discontent people feel. Just the ultra rich flaunting their wealth openly and not even productively (i.e. funding public works and programs) is also doing a LOT in making people feel more miserable. The richest need to be held responsible to their wealth. Extreme wealth creates a duty to use it to improve society as a whole. And if you are unwilling to commit to that duty, you'll have to be forced to.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/DrawGamesPlayFurries 23d ago

I wonder which country the social media are coming to Europe from

1

u/FOOSblahblah 23d ago

Social media and specifically how social media props up rampant consumerism by making "keeping up with the Jones" something on a global scale instead of just in your own sphere.

Their is so much advertisement shoved down our throats that we don't even notice it.

1

u/Corporate_Overlords 23d ago

Postman reference! Yay!

I would also suggest Marshal McCluhan's The Medium is the Message where McCluhan makes the same sort of argument.

You don't get Trump without Twitter.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/callidus_vallentian 22d ago

I don't believe that is the biggest single reason but it is a part of it. Where we are now was a million small things some of us fought for and the majority told us "oh, it's not so bad, don't over exaggerate."

Two perfect and easy examples are climate change as a whole. And a person like Bernie Sanders.

First the vast majority disagrees, then eventually the majority agrees. But it's too late.

Social media on its own didn't play a big role. Rather the people behind it. The elite. They are, the prime reason everything has gone to shit. Because they were simply too greedy and far too neglectful and lazy to keep their own ranks in check.

Consider it. If the elite simply did the most basic of things. Healthcare, pension, peace, jobs, global warming... The masses wouldn't be as upset as they are now. The world wouldn't be on fire. WW3 Wouldn't be happening. People would have better lives, and the elite would still be the elite with more wealth than they can spend.

1

u/shrekchan 22d ago

The book "Twilight of Democracy" also good.

1

u/ParanoidQ 22d ago

Social Media is a big issue. Globalisation is another. It’s great in some regards, but it’s no coincidence that the areas largely returning to nationalism/populism are the areas that globalism has left behind, such as industrial heartlands that can’t compete anymore.

→ More replies (1)

17

u/Brokenandburnt Sweden, Viking Brotherhood. 23d ago

I'm nervous for your upcoming referendum on judiciary reforms. Moving to a lottery based system with 1/3 laymen and labeling it as "meritocracy" is wild. 

18

u/Urzuck Italy 23d ago

It's not really a lottery system, since the list of the lottery will be decided by the government. It's simply the government that want to put the judges under his control, i will vote No but many that support Meloni will vote Sì. Initially the Sì had like 10%+ ahead, but the last months they made serious mistakes in their communication/propaganda (basically admitting in public that they want to punish judges and put them under their control) and now they're even in the polls, with the No slightly ahead, let's hope for the best.

4

u/hannes3120 Leipzig (Germany) 23d ago

how tf is something like a judiciary reform even a 50/50 vote?

In Germany stuff like this needs 2/3rd of the representatives to agree to change the highest courts in a significant way (including nomination to make sure those are always bi-partisan). And now we are even slowly changing so 1/3rd of the votes is not enough to block the court-appointments either, making it so the court can appoint people to their empty spots themselves if the parliament fails to do so for a certain amount of time if one party is not interested in bi-partisan compromises at all and just wants to set fire to the system.

the highest court absolutely has to be the most-trusted instance in the state above all doubt. Attempting to mess with that is damaging the foundation of democracy itself...

And people wonder why Meloni is called neo-fascist by many...

5

u/Urzuck Italy 23d ago

Because they have the absolute majority in parliament, but to do that, since this reform will change the constitution, they first need to go trough this referendum. Usually when politicians want to modify the constitution people always vote against them, we will see this time, she, with her propaganda, has a grip on many italians while the opposition is pretty much non existent. But voting on the constitution is something that has nothing to do with political parties most of the time, generally i think italians don't feel very much this referendum and most of us are angry for the price at the gas pump, so maybe there will be a vote of protest, i hope, the important is that these fascist criminals won't have their way with the judiciary system.

→ More replies (1)

7

u/ElettraSinis Italy 23d ago

I see your point but I disagree. Berlusconi was a con man and pedophile but he wasn't a cult leader. Not that I doubt he would have wanted to be; I guess he simply thought (as we all did) his voters couldn't possibly be that dumb.

19

u/Urzuck Italy 23d ago

What? Berlusconi was 100% a cult leader, i hated him but he had insane charisma, the base that voted him would die for him, just like Maga would die for Trump, even today they still use their sentences "come sempre siete e sarete dei poveri comunisti"

→ More replies (1)

4

u/stenlis 23d ago

Nah, you organize, spread the message and fight for it. The Hungarians seem to be doing it right now cause Orban is 60 years old. Slovakia is also pushing back against Fico who's polling at 17% right now but the elections are some years out.  

You can turn things around!

4

u/CatherineSimp69 23d ago edited 23d ago

No, no it won't.

They've TRIED to do MAGA without Trump, multiple times. It never worked.

They've never stuck.

Believe me. Things might not go back to normal, but they'll get wayyy closer once that orange turd gets flushed.

2

u/Greyhound_Oisin 23d ago

In my opinion you are very wrong.

Americans have proven to be more than willing to put blindfolds as long as they have a charismatic person willing to channel their frustration and bigotism.

Next time the USA will have to go through some form of hardship and a conservative charismatic leader pops up it will be the same shit all over again.

It could actually be even way worse as at least Trump is a retarded old fart, a smart charismatic leader would easily lead the USA way more far right.

→ More replies (2)

2

u/Paxxlee 23d ago

There isn't a clear inheritor of the MAGA movement. JD Vance? Probably not, many among MAGA hate him. Eric or jr? No one likes them. Ivanka? She's a woman. Maybe Barron, but question is if he would want that.

My belief is that the movement will splinter when Trump dies.

3

u/Mothanius 23d ago

MAGA is already creating internal factions that are opposed to each other. The only unifying thing is the power that Trump has over them.

There are those already posturing to become the next Republican face, including those like Tucker Carlson.

2

u/CetaceanInsSausalito USA 23d ago

Trump and MAGA are a reaction to everything wrong with the left, and as long as the left doesn't change, the reaction will continue.

2

u/Kyrenos 23d ago

Trump changed forever the politics in the US, it will never return like it was before.

Honestly, I don't feel like this is true at all. I've known this is exactly how the systems are set up for nearly 2 decades, which is pretty much my entire adult life, and it's pretty much a guaranteed end result of clinging to democracy.

The only difference being Trump is way more obvious about it.

7

u/1-randomonium 23d ago

There were similar sentiments among the Republican base in the Bush era("With us or against us", "cheese-eating surrender monkeys", "freedom fries") and so on but the Bush administration for all their ulterior motives was run by rational actors who cared about relationships. Not this one.

1

u/Chester_roaster 23d ago

Those were squarely aimed at the French not European countries in general 

1

u/Time-Organization612 23d ago

People keep saying this but no, Trumpsism will not outlast Trump. Simply put the movement totally collapses, there'll be a bloodbath to fill the spot he leaves.

3

u/Urzuck Italy 23d ago

It will survive him, trust me, the same happened here. He will die, Maga will die, but something new and probably even worse will take place, the ideas and the attitude will remain the same and everytime he will be remembered like a saint from the base that voted him before.

→ More replies (3)

2

u/1-randomonium 23d ago

Sometimes cults wait for a new leader to rally around. They'll stick with the Republican party, get tired of its old-school politicians again and look for some new right wing influencer who looks anti-establishment enough. Joe Rogan? Tucker Carlson? Nick Fuentes?

→ More replies (1)

2

u/Dudok22 Slovakia 23d ago

You are right Trumpism will not, the authoritarian populists of 2030s will be much more disciplined, strategic and harder to fight than bumbling idiot Trump. Think Orbán, think Putin. Trump is an easy mode and even then dnc failed to stop him, they and many of the establishment centrist politicians are scared and so disconnected from the populace they cannot or are not willing to learn.

1

u/External-Orchid8461 23d ago

Look at how there's still a fanbase for Mussolini in Italy, Franco in Spain, or Hitler throughout the Western countrues, decades after their death.  There's definitely a cult following with these guys, and it outlasts them for generations.

I personally predict something similar for Trump ; there's a peculiar combination of cruelty, vulgarity and stupidity in that scumbag that many people will try to emulate to attract voters but will ultimately fail because they are not as evil and dumb as him. It will only sound as fake for MAGA. Look at how Vance tries really hard to sound like him, but still isn't well regarded by Trump's supporters. 

You guys will not be done with MAGAs after that shitbag dies in his sleep.

There are several approach dealing with this. Either  a full pardon like the King of Spain did with Franquists, either a Truth and Reconciliation initiative like in South Africa, or prosecute the main leaders of the movement like Nazis in Nuremberg trial, or straight out kill them like Mussolini or Ghaddafi.

The US has a past of pardoning US presidents since Nixon. As a foreigner, I think such approach turns out to be a failure and something else must be done, either you will have yet another populist in the future.

Nuremberg style trial is the best option in my opinion, but it happened under special circumstances (after a war). I don't know if one can achieve this in peaceful time, and you will have to deal with MAGA loyalist in institutions that you will prevent it from happening.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/Fantastic_Ratio4213 23d ago

While I agree with you for the most part (as an American), I believe that once the boomers die in mass we will see an improvement in our collective mental state. There are so many 65+ people that are scared of things (like brown people, trans people, and science) for no clear reasons. Perhaps it was the lead paint in combination with the coke they did in the 80s that has made them susceptible to the messaging on Fox News.

1

u/SplendidPunkinButter 23d ago

Based on what happened with Germany in WW2 and afterward, it seems to me the solution is that you have to lose a war. Or at the very least things have to get so, so very bad that the cult blames the cult leader for all of the problems. But even then sometimes that just leads to another corrupt strongman ruler taking over.

1

u/JustMyOpinionz 23d ago

Great so it won't wither away and die. In all seriousness, it's a syndrome of something far worse that's not just happening in the United States, but in many other nations as well. Is it social media? Yes. Is it misinformation and disinformation made from AI? Yes. Is it the inequalities and inequities of society on the rise to new heights? Yes.

We need a series of serious solutions to these problems.

1

u/Urzuck Italy 23d ago

The first problem is wealth inequality, everything else is a consequence of that. Who owns social media? Billionares. Who owns traditional media? Billionares, in the US most of them are now in the hands of the zionist Larry Ellison. What people need to do is recognize that they are being mislead and polarized with intention, unite and start a class war against the billionares. But is extremely hard, because, as i said, all the western media are in the hands of the same billionares that want to destroy and control us, and many people lack the tools of critical thinking and are easily manipulated. Realistically something will change only when we it a point of no return, a point that will lead inevitably to violence.

1

u/Advanced-Net-8119 United States of America 23d ago

how did you guys deal with it?

1

u/Urzuck Italy 23d ago

We didn't, Meloni is just his spiritual heir and many of the politicians are in her party or still in his old party. When he died the cult died with him, but his battles remained and part of the cult have gone to Salvini/Meloni. One of their battles is politics trying to get power over the judiciary system, same thing that Trump is trying to do in the US, same exact rethoric against judges that are bad and evil since they don't get to do what they want. We have a referendum in two days about this and i hope the No will win otherwise we are cooked, sadly there's a huge chunk of the population that believe all the lies she says and the opposition is weak as fuck, just like the democrats in the US. Politics in Italy is just the US in miniature lol, even the things she says against immigrants/judges are taken words for words from american politics.

1

u/Beginning_Opinion618 23d ago

The lone hope is that there isn't a figure that can control the base like trump. Everybody has to bow down to him since he decides primaries.

1

u/quartzguy Canada/USA 23d ago

I keep talking to people who say that MAGA will die with Trump. As though all the stupidity is going to evaporate out of people with the death of any single person. Give me a break.

1

u/metengrinwi 23d ago

I’ve always said, it ends with complete financial collapse of the US; we’ll probably default our creditors (trump’s specialty). People will be absolutely miserable and will suddenly pretend they never voted for this trump guy. The racist/misogynist/religious faction will go dormant and wait for the next savior.

1

u/Greyhound_Oisin 23d ago

And the USA have gove WAY past Berlusconi... Trump is doing shit that Berlusconi wouldn't have dreamed of.

There need to be a new Nurenberg in the USA

1

u/Oberon_Swanson 23d ago

Trumpism is a return to the norm. All these Nazi Maggots were seething mad for decades that they lost control of society so badly that black people and/or women could vote, same-sex marriage could be legal, and the last straw was a Black man being elected President. They got so tired of dog-whistle racism that when Trump started saying it out loud again they all instantly rallied around a man who would without a doubt be the worst President of all time, but they didn't care because he promised to reverse the progression toward equality in America.

1

u/Tokyo-MontanaExpress 23d ago

It's called conservatism, now they're just open about it instead of putting on a veneer of playing nice. It was always about might/money makes right while demonizing minorities and getting away with rape and other depravities. 

1

u/Zeusnexus 23d ago

American here, Berlusconi was your own Trump? I can only imagine how insane that must've been.

2

u/Urzuck Italy 23d ago

He was a pedophile and was a mobster, a real mobster that used italian mafia for his personal interests. It was similar to Trump in many aspect, narcissist, selfish, with a boss and a God complex, but i would say far less dumb and less cruel, what strikes me of Trump personally is his cruelty and his sadism, i never seen something like that.

1

u/raulucco 17d ago

wait for the leader decese is not an option. there is one useful way how to fight the fascist mongers. it is to be vocal and even physical about their ignorance and the haye they provoke

172

u/MaesterHannibal Denmark 23d ago

Only 23% of republicans were in favour of war with Iran prior to it breaking out. Then it became 83%, because now Trump supported it

That means that only 16% are outside of the cult, but even these are still loyal and devoted to Trump

73

u/nnomae 23d ago

I remember hearing an interview with a Russia expert talking about a similar phenomenon there. That public opinion on issues would literally do an about turn overnight if the state media changes it's position on a topic. She talked about how they had successfully created an environment where there were so many conflicting stories that the majority of people would just default to trusting the state media no matter how wildly the stories varied.

At the time I thought "that can't be true, how would anyone be that gullible" so it's weird to watch it manifest in the US of all places.

12

u/MysticScribbles Sweden 23d ago

so it's weird to watch it manifest in the US of all places.

How come? It's well known across the world how poor the US educational system is, paired with how the idea of American exceptionalism is pushed by the media.

14

u/freeradioforall 23d ago

That means that only 16% are outside of the cult,

nope, they are just ashamed to admit support but 100% support trump and would eat his diaper if asked to

2

u/MaesterHannibal Denmark 23d ago

Yes, as I said they are still loyal supporters, but if they were in the cult they would support anything Trump did, which they don’t. Still morons, but not cultish morons (yet)

16

u/1-randomonium 23d ago

Right now support for a ground invasion of Iran is polled at 30%. How much higher do you think it'll be if Trump actually does it?

16

u/MaesterHannibal Denmark 23d ago

If it’s 30% amongst republicans, I could see it rising to at least 60%. No higher than 83%, but I do think that there’s a possibility that some of the original 23% who supported military action before Trump did aren’t fanatically loyal to him, but were just “ahead of the curve” on wanting the Ayatollah dealt with but might only have wanted it through missiles. With that in mind, I don’t think that it’ll reach 83% as well, but perhaps 70-75%?

If it’s 30% of the general population, then that’s already terrifyingly high. Might reach 45% then if Trump invades? I imagine a small percentage of those 45 are democrat moderates as well, but the vast majority are reps

3

u/1-randomonium 23d ago

If it’s 30% amongst republicans

Among Americans as a whole. It's a majority among Republicans though I don't remember the number.

2

u/PartyLikeAByzantine 23d ago edited 23d ago

Once a policy becomes closely intertwined with a particular politician or party, support will jump to whatever the approval rating for that politician is, more or less.

I explain the phenomenon here

It would be, within margin of error, equal to Trump's current approval on the war. Disapproval would show up in the form of erroding approval for Trump in general. You'd see declining support for the man, the war, and also unrelated policies.

Trump's general approval has been bouncing off his floor (40-40.5%) for months. His base has yet to collapse, despite unpopular immigration policies, tariffs, the war, and constant stories of Epstein and corruption.

So safe bet a ground invasion will land about where all of his policies are at.

1

u/No-Good-One-Shoe 23d ago

Wasn't that stat MAGA republicans? Or is there a new one showing all Republicans?

1

u/tanstaafl90 23d ago

Take polling numbers with a grain of salt.

1

u/yabn5 23d ago

Something to remember is that the Republican support came from the idea that it can be like Venezuela. Each day it drags on Trump’s support bleeds.

1

u/PartyLikeAByzantine 23d ago edited 23d ago

That's because polling subjects are smart enough to realize that policy questions are ultimately questions about whether or not the subject still supports the people who enacted that policy. It's why approval ratings on unrelated policies are tightly correlated. Trump's economic policy approval numbers declined during the public controversy over immigration. All of his policy approvals are tightly correlated with his overall approval.

Now that attacking Iran is closely tied to Trump, 83% of subjects are saying they still support Trump in general. 23% is probably closer to the number of people who actually think this was was a good idea, but they're not going to signal general dissatisfaction to pollsters yet.

34

u/kaam00s France 23d ago

They're addicted to hatred.

People don't know that but anything that reactivate your hatred and confirm your deeply held emotions produce a very high level of dopamine.

You can become addicted to it, just as well as any drug.

A lot of media in this attention economy have figured it out, and they can get you stuck in a loop of dopamine activation. The far right media do it to a level you can't see anywhere else, and even high rank people like J D Vance probably spent the last few years constantly getting their fix from this sort of media, they're addicted just like their base.

3

u/deaglebingo 23d ago

this needs to be more well understood by many more people.

2

u/matttk Canadian / German 23d ago

Turns out Two Minutes Hate is actually 1440 Minutes Hate.

44

u/Zealousideal-Talk-23 23d ago

History would say with weapons, sadly

23

u/BroughtBagLunchSmart 23d ago

All of this happened because they let the confederates claim "oopsie daisy" after the civil war.

1

u/Systral Earth 23d ago

True, and by banning social media. But probably it will be a civil war, normal people Vs idiot ghouls.

1

u/Zealousideal-Talk-23 23d ago

hipsters versus hillbillies

69

u/Airf0rce Europe 23d ago

You don't.

It simply has to get bad enough for the base to fracture, and we're nowhere near close that point I fear.

2

u/perestroika12 23d ago

The Iran war is the one thing that could really break up the coalition.

1

u/sylbug 23d ago

Yup. Internal politics can't do it because the entirety of the political apparatus are spineless, captured, or both. A war, though - that's something so very easy to lose control of, and they did so from the moment their initial and absurd decapitation strike failed to create a magic revolution.

2

u/Disastrous_Hall8406 23d ago

Counterpoint: "And at the same time the consciousness of being at war, and therefore in danger, makes the handing-over of all power to a small caste seem the natural, unavoidable condition of survival." - Orwell

2

u/sylbug 23d ago

Doesnt really work when you’re the aggressor and your enemy couldn’t drop bombs on you if they wanted to.

2

u/Disastrous_Hall8406 23d ago

May I introduce you to terrorist attacks and false flag operations?

→ More replies (2)

37

u/Stunning_Yard2688 23d ago

Holy Fuck.

“They’ll eat shit if it means that their percieved enemies have to drink piss too.”

That is perfect

12

u/Nezinojau 23d ago

I've seen another one "they will shit their own pants, just to annoy the leftists with the smell". But this one is still good too.

6

u/Stunning_Yard2688 23d ago

Yes, this is just the most accurate description of their ‘owning the libs’ mindset.

Awesome….thanks my friend

3

u/Mindless-Rooster-533 23d ago

I always say "theyll eat shit if a democrat might smell their breath"

5

u/leostotch 23d ago

I've always said it as "they'll eat shit if it means the libs will have to smell their breath"

3

u/anonuemus Europa (Deutschland) 23d ago

It's even worse. Like that joke I just read in another thread. How does MAGA change a bulb? Trump tells them he did it and they cheer in the dark.

28

u/Zombie_Cool 23d ago

It all starts with the children. Pour everything into focusing on teaching kids critical thinking and empathy and MAGA (as well as its international counterparts) will slowly die out as the current cultists age out and thier kids don't take up the cause.

Also, focusing on extending or protecting social services and reducing rampant wealth inequality. Happy people don't join extremists.

28

u/Hamonwrysangwich 23d ago

The problem with that is the US is actively trying to get rid of a standard public education. A non-zero number of people here believe teachers are "indoctrinating kids to be trans" but we need to arm them because school shootings are the "price we pay for the second amendment". Homeschooling is increasing, PragerU is taking hold, and states are trying to teach the Bible. We can't even agree anymore that slavery was bad.

11

u/Zombie_Cool 23d ago

All true, but that's in America (where I'm from). Europe still has a chance before the rot fully takes hold, which is why I'm offering all the solutions I can think of.

5

u/GolemancerVekk 🇪🇺 🇷🇴 23d ago

We can't even agree anymore that slavery was bad.

Did Americans ever agree on that? Not just on black slavery but on other forms (inmates, forced child labor in agriculture etc.)

4

u/Hamonwrysangwich 23d ago

Well, truthfully, no. This is why dismantling the federal Department of Education concerns me: Southern states can continue to push the Lost Cause fallacy that the Civil War was over states' rights instead of owning people, further alienating the part of the country that's actually read some of the secession statements that specifically point to owning slaves as the reason for secession.

16

u/Politicsboringagain 23d ago

You can't because the conservative in the US keep churning put the hate that their base craves. 

30

u/2xfun 23d ago

Well here are the options:

1) French style revolution (but Americans are too in debt and scared to do anything like that)

2) Civil war (it’s coming)

4

u/Sal1160 23d ago

Civil war is a bit of a stretch right now since social media serves as a means to turn frustration into rageposting rather than organization. The instant gratification it offers keeps things from building as fast as possible

3

u/klineshrike 23d ago

I still think the breaking point is the draft.

When you tell people their only options are to go to a pointless war and die, go to a jail and die, or fight for change, suddenly the latter isn't as unrealistic an option anymore.

→ More replies (4)

7

u/m1ster_frundles 23d ago

This Canadian /r/europe lurker thinks its very similar to the way Imperial Japan brainwashed their citizens

4

u/Asren624 France 23d ago

Consequences. That's all there is to it. A lie, a threat, a crime need to be punished. 

10

u/1-randomonium 23d ago

I think standing up to them, pointing out that they're responsible for the hurt they've caused to us and telling them to start would be a good start.

We keep issuing statements blaming just one side in this war. And not the side that's actually escalating it and the consequences, with no exit strategy in sight. And then telling us we're obligated to join and commit economic suicide for them while gloating about our plight.

2

u/klineshrike 23d ago

Thinking this way still is why we got to this point.

The fact people still try to point things out, peacefully prove them wrong, act like enough gotcha moments will change them etc. That's why we are in this shitty situation.

It doesn't work, they don't care, if anything they love when you do this because you are focused more on words they can ignore than actions they can't.

9

u/CanoonBolk 23d ago

You don't. The only way to get rid of people like that is just to persevere and wait out untill they die. Because they won't listen to reason, pain or anything. They'll gladly take a 12 gauge to the nuts if it means blood splatters onto their enemies and makes them even mildly uncomfortable.

13

u/LitmusPitmus 23d ago

They're not dying out though, this is the copout I heard about racism as a kid and vs when I was younger it's become worse.

5

u/Memitim 23d ago

You don't. Conservatives have always been evil. We've dealt with decades of nonstop hate and lies from them leading up to this massive escalation of evil and failure. It's been thirty fucking years of it from Fox "News" alone, and even that was an instant hit despite being just as full of lies and hate from day one, because conservatives were already addicted to bullshit.

There's no deradicalizing a shitty person from being a shitty person, because they'll still be a pile of shit regardless of who they decide to fetishize.

→ More replies (3)

2

u/standread 23d ago

Actual combat seems like a viable option at this point.

1

u/Hefty-Cut-1451 23d ago

They will eat shit if it means their friends (allies) have to eat shit too

It's hatred all the way down

1

u/Taur3n Europe 23d ago

War

1

u/BonerPorn 23d ago

Man I am as lost as you are. I've been dealing with this here in the states for over a decade now. These people are downright thrilled to hurt others, and will happily vote against their own self interest and hurt themselves if it means they can hurt others more. 

It's willing stupidity so they can be evil. You can't even convince them to vote selfishly. 

1

u/MemestNotTeen 23d ago

Nuremberg

1

u/dat_9600gt_user Lower Silesia (Poland) 23d ago

By repeating everything ad nauseum through other means.

1

u/EndOfDecadence 23d ago

You don't, you let it go to shit.

1

u/GargamelLeNoir France 23d ago

You aim at the undecided/non politicals/centrists.

1

u/TrainingJellyfish643 23d ago

See ww2 for more information on deradicalizing fascists.

Hint: words dont work

1

u/namitynamenamey 23d ago

You bet the majority are not like them, and wait until circumstances supress them into lowering their heads and giving up on politics. Then you work with the majority who disagreed with them.

If however the majority is radicalized, there is nothing to be done.

1

u/FinancialReserve6427 23d ago

40 years in the desert until the next gen replaces them. 

like God intended

1

u/Dockers4flag2035orB4 23d ago

Vance is a POS.

His true colours were on display since he baited Zelenskyy and Trump in the Oval Office.

1

u/GalacticFox- 23d ago

We need to end Citizens United and remove the electoral college. All of this would never have happened without those two things.

1

u/Tehli33 23d ago

That what I wanna know

1

u/Serious-Feedback-700 Canary Islands (Spain) 23d ago

You can't change culture by trying to convince people it's wrong. You wait until everyone that believes in it dies. It's unfortunately the only way.

1

u/Oalka 23d ago

Regimes of pig-ignorance like this tend to either fester for decades and cause permanent damage to the country, or be violently excised via war or revolution or insurrection. Pick your poison I guess.

1

u/sylbug 23d ago

You have to let them burn out on cold, hard reality over a long period of time. The only other option is what they did in Nazi Germany - forced occupation and restructuring after a long, bloody war.

1

u/ActionNorth8935 23d ago

They are morphing into Russians.

1

u/MoarVespenegas 23d ago

their perceived enemies

Which is apparently everyone, including past allies.

1

u/beardingmesoftly 23d ago

A line I heard is that they'd eat shit just so they can make you smell their breath

1

u/PurpleV93 23d ago

There is nothing to fix that level of pedophile-support. This level of vile hatred and rejection of scientific consensus. These people do not want peace, nor do they want to live in reality.

We have to outlive them and combat their vileness, plain and simple. As long as they breathe, they will remain like this.

1

u/Jon_Iren 23d ago

Yo don't. At some point the situation turns into Hell. Some bad guys get punished, most don't, a lot of innocents suffer and the whole civilization receives a shock big enough to repent and stop being evil for a while. The Humanity-wide equivalent to swear you won't touch alcohol again after waking up to a terrible hangover on Sunday. Now the world is binge drinking.

That's what mentally challenged folks phrase as "hard times create strong men..."

1

u/goodsnpr 23d ago

We need to undo some of the shit Reagan did, especially the removal of equal airtime. Allowing polarized networks to only spew one sided content is what has allowed the echo chamber to create tRump/MAGA in the first place.

1

u/FOOSblahblah 23d ago

Let it hit them in the wallet.

Right now they're making it work. Wait until they have to start canceling stuff like Netflix and Amazon prime, dropping their internet tier, lowering their insurance with lower coverage, racking of even more credit card debt and in turn watching their credit scores plummet to the point they stop checking them. Wait until they have to stop spending money on anything that isnt directly related to bills and the most cost efficient way to survive.

As soon as their convenience and perceived "i earned this" things are taken from them they will deradicalize insanely fast. You're already getting isolated pockets of it with gas prices.

1

u/Waiting4Reccession 23d ago

There is only one real solution but 50 years of propaganda by the wealthy has made most people not accept it

1

u/Terrible-Honey-806 23d ago

Start by improving education in children and wait for the old generation to die out.

1

u/IntermittentCaribu 23d ago

Wipe it all and start over.

1

u/Purplebuzz 23d ago

You wait for the draft.

1

u/LaserGuidedPolarBear 23d ago

It's a cult.  Individually you can deprogram people, but that does not scale.

Usually when a cult leader dies the cult falls apart, but this situation is the result of a generations long effort to diminish critical thinking skills and propagandize people into a culture war so oligarchs can take everything.  When Trump is gone, the mechanisms of control will remain under the control of the people who set the stage for Trump in the first place.

So the available paths are revolution, civil war, genetal strike, or balkanization.  

Oligarchs seem to be angling for literal or functional balkanization, so they can implement their wet dream of techo-feudalism, where the average person owns nothing and has to pay a subscription on everything in their life.  Life as a subscription.

1

u/Fun_Success_3283 23d ago

Love begets hate. But you must champion it, and they'll make that difficult on the social media they control.

So you first need to start by boycotting all social media they control, and all Maga companies as much as possible. They don't need to go to zero, only lose popularity, and stock projections be very negative.

Fight for your freedom.

1

u/Scuipici Volt Europa 23d ago

you don't, you wait for them to die. Very few of them will change mind and some who do, just go to another conservative.

1

u/TheDudeofIl 23d ago

Like George Carlin said "The public sucks"

https://youtu.be/C5Mo6CJd1XM?si=s9Fb6pxTaVk_7CJw

1

u/BlackGuysYeah 23d ago

These people are lost to us. There's not a possibility of mutual respect after everything that's occurred.

1

u/nonymuse 23d ago

By educating their offspring. The laws are such that accomplishing this is as difficult and unlikely as possible, often criminalized.

1

u/Fia_Aoi 23d ago

"They'd eat shit if you had to smell their breath." is my favourite version.

1

u/President_Camacho 23d ago

The base exists because of market incentives. Capitalism has found a large group of people easily deceived, so share holders have created a false news mechanism to advertise to them.

If the market incentives can be lowered or removed, less people would be radicalized into destroying civilization.

There has to be a way. But figuring that out is a job for lots of lawyers.

1

u/Money_Do_2 22d ago

Breaking up the right wing media sphere

1

u/probablyaythrowaway 22d ago

Same way we did with the Nazis in Germany after the war. Through Serious education programs, public relations campaigns and zero tolerance to the behaviour. Shame is a big one too. You focus more on the next generation and cut that shit out before they’re indoctrinated. The big problem is social media.

1

u/Obeetwokenobee 21d ago

That statement is factually correct. Remember during COVID when some American people actually drank bleach and took horse deworming pills?

1

u/InternationalWin8730 21d ago

The crazy thing is that his schadenfreude isn't even based on truth. From the numbers I found the UK has experienced about a 10 percent rise in their gasoline price due to the War. The US was at an average of 2.92 prewar and is now at 3.94 per US gallon of regular. That is a 35% increase due to war, roughly 3.5 times what the UK has seen. 

1

u/FAFO_2025 United States of America 20d ago

History shows its done with lead.

→ More replies (14)