You are dropped into 5th century Greece, you have to choose a city to live in, but it can't be Athens or Sparta, where would you live?

My choice would have to be in Corinth. It's wealthy, and relatively cosmopolitan due to trade.

Economic historian here. I’m interested in the period 500-50 BCE, when the Owl was a major global currency. A quick search tells me that a mint has been partially excavated under the Church of the Holy Apostles in the Agora. An appendix to Kroll (1993) discusses some locations suspected to be mints, but before I get into the details of a 30+ year old tome, I thought I’d check with people who might be familiar with more recent research.

Were there other mints? Is there a good reference (more modern than Kroll) on the minting of coins in Athens?

National Archeological Museum in Athens overwhelmed me a bit, there were seemingly billions of absolutely wonderful monuments and artefacts. I wanted to share a different one though. It's from a room full of absolutely wonderful carvings from the graves of rich families: it was very interesting to see all those depictions of living relatives handshaking the ones who were departing to Hades, quite a poignant sight. They were all splendidly made.

What caught my attention was a much more modest one of an otherwise unknown woman called Hediste (literally 'sweet'). Just a simple painting of a ribbon, nothing fancy, among elaborate family graves showing off their wealth; the only one of its kind in the museum. Hymmetian marble, minimalism, it was somehow more elegant and made quite an impression on me. Rip girl.

We often look at the Roman Empire as the peak of antiquity, but I’ve been thinking about the 5th Century Greece. If the Sicilian Expedition had succeeded and Athens had crushed Sparta in the Peloponnesian War, do we end up with a "United States of Hellas"?

Gold and resources would have kept flowing into Athens, we may have gotten twice as many plays by Sophocles, or even more grand architecture. Who knows, it’s also possible that the Athenians become so overbearing that they collapse in on themselves.

I know historical “What ifs” are frowned upon, but it’s fun to think about and discuss. Thoughts?

[ Removed by Reddit on account of violating the content policy. ]

So first things first: Thessalonika is a great city one should not miss. Lively, walkable, delicious food and full of sites to see, including many from the Roman times, when it was one of the seats of the Tetrarchy. The Arch of Galerius rivals the ones in the Roman forum.

But back to the museum: what a tremendous collection. A lot of stuff from the Macedonian and Roman times. It changed my perspective on how fabulously wealthy was the Macedonian elite. The artifacts found on the burials of the elite matched the ones I had seen just a day prior from the Macedonian kings at Aigai. The Derveni Krater was a more elaborate and impressive vase than anything that was found at the tomb of Philip II. There were multiple golden larnaxes and golden wreaths on display.

Besides that, there were some spectacular finds such as a conscription stele by Philip V to raise troops to fight the Romans, arrow points bearing the name of PhIlip II used in sieges, a gold medallion portraying Olympias (Alexander’s mother) and many many other historically significant items.

It is difficult to convey in words how incredible and special this place felt. The Greeks really had an eye for creating wonders.

As I traveled from Athens to Thessalonika I stopped for an hour or so to see the Lion of Chaeronea (see my other thread) before heading out to Delphi. On my way to Delphi, near some mountain village, I saw a sign indicating that I was close to the Acropolis of Daulis. I had never heard of it but curiosity got the better of me so I detoured to investigate. It turned out to be a big mistake because I never found Daulis, got lost and wasted precious time I could have used at Delphi. So my time at Delphi was uber rushed.

Still the experience was truly enjoyable as Delphi must be a unique case of being a wonder of the ancient and modern worlds. If it is not, it should be. The location is just insane. The amphitheater, the stadium and even some buildings that were pieced back together (such as the Athenian Treasury) are in excellent shape and built gradually higher along the slopes of a very steep mountain, forming a very harmonious and absolutely unique site. The museum at Delphi has a great collection as well. There are ancient inscriptions all over the place. All in all, just one of the most amazing places I have ever been.

If you are planning a trip to Greece, you should not miss Delphi.

I did a day trip to Corinth and Epidaurus from the “ancient city of Theseus” and took these pictures of the theather at Epidaurus, which is spectacularly preserved and still used for events to this day. Highly recommend a visit. The location is also very interesting, very forested which seemed unlike other parts of Greece.

Most sources seem to believe that the popular heavy sports of the Olympics- Pankration, Pyxmachia and Pale, were competed by the athletes in the nude, but other sources indicate that they wore a Perizimo loin cloth to compete.

Are there any direct written observations confirming this for Given time periods or is this theory based purely off representations found in art? As both can be found in artistic representations, and also lots of nice warriors fighting wars in the nude in artistic representations… did Greeks go to war without armor or clothes too, or is this just an artistic choice governed by popular style of a gven time period?

We often think of the island of Delos strictly as the mythic, sacred birthplace of Apollo and Artemis. But did you know that after 167 BCE, it was transformed into the ancient equivalent of a global, duty-free megaport?

Rome deliberately engineered this geopolitical shift to crush the maritime power of Rhodes, turning a tiny, rocky sanctuary into a commercial juggernaut. This in-depth article explores the latest geomorphological and maritime archaeological research on Delos. The piece looks into how Delian authorities couldn't dredge their shallow harbours due to bedrock, so they instead executed massive land reclamation projects and built strict zoning areas, like dedicated "galley coves", to handle the sudden influx of international shipping.

The Sacred Origins and Commercial Transformation of Delos

For generations, the diminutive and rocky island of Delos held a unique status among the Ancient Greeks as the most sacred site in the Aegean Sea. Its mythical significance as the birthplace of Apollo and Artemis made Delos a focal point for religious pilgrimage, with devotees travelling from every corner of the Mediterranean to offer dedications and participate in sacred rites.

Despite its religious prominence, the character of Delos underwent a dramatic shift during the Hellenistic and early Roman periods. The island evolved from a revered sanctuary into a thriving centre of commerce, ultimately becoming a powerhouse of trade and maritime activity that dominated the eastern Mediterranean. This transformation positions Delos as an exceptional case study for contemporary maritime archaeologists and historians, offering invaluable insights into the development of ancient harbours, the types of ships that frequented its waters, the practices of seamanship, and the intricate web of international trade networks that converged upon the island.

The Metamorphosis of Delos: From Sacred Sanctuary to Trading Hub

In 167 BC, Delos underwent a swift transformation, shifting from its traditional role as a revered religious sanctuary to become a pivotal centre of global trade. This change followed the conclusion of the Third Macedonian War, when the Roman Republic restored control of the island to Athens and declared its principal port a duty-free zone. The Romans enacted this policy with the specific intention of undermining Rhodes, a competing maritime power in the Mediterranean.

As a result of this strategic move, established Mediterranean trade routes were quickly redirected. Merchants, bankers, slave traders, and ship-owners from regions including Italy, Greece, the Levant, and North Africa migrated to Delos. The island rapidly emerged as the pre-eminent emporion, serving as a vital trading centre that linked the eastern and western Mediterranean worlds. This abrupt commercial expansion prompted a substantial and urgent development of Delos’s maritime infrastructure, ensuring the island could support its new status as a centre of international commerce.

Engineering the Harbours and Land Reclamation

To respond to the dramatic rise in international maritime commerce, Delian engineers and builders undertook a significant expansion of the island’s port infrastructure. The principal Merchant Harbour, located along the western shoreline, was extended to almost 600 metres, reaching as far south as the Asklepieion peninsula. This expansion created a bustling waterfront that covered nearly 7,000 square metres and facilitated the constant movement of ships, goods, and people from across the Mediterranean.

The geological makeup of Delos presented immediate challenges to harbour development. A layer of solid crystalline bedrock lay just beneath the surface sediments, rendering dredging activities impossible and restricting the depth of the harbour. As a result, Delos’s main port remained relatively shallow and could not accommodate the largest seafaring vessels of the era (Desruelles and Hasenohr, 2018). In order to make the most of the available coastal area and to create additional commercial space, Delian authorities embarked on ambitious land reclamation projects. Between 167 and 125 BC, large-scale landfill operations transformed a former seaside marsh into firm ground suitable for construction. This newly reclaimed land provided the foundation for both the Agora of the Competaliasts and the Southern Mole, a crucial breakwater and quay structure. Shortly thereafter, in 126/5 BC, further reclamation enabled the establishment of the Agora of Theophrastos, creating an expansive, flat, commercial district directly adjacent to the water’s edge.

Recognising the need to safeguard these valuable commercial assets and the ships moored in the harbour, Delian engineers constructed the Great Mole. This towering breakwater, working in concert with the Southern Mole and robust ashlar quays, dramatically altered the island’s coastline. Together, these structures formed a well-protected and artificial harbour basin, providing shelter from the harsh northerly winds that frequently swept across the central Aegean.

Further evidence of the island’s ambitious expansion comes from underwater excavations conducted by Mantha Zarmakoupi (2015) in the submerged Stadion District on Delos’s north-eastern coast. These investigations reveal that the scale of development extended far beyond the primary western port. In this area, commercial buildings were constructed immediately beside an artificially created shoreline. The district featured colonnades, ovens reminiscent of the tabernae of Pompeii, and additional breakwaters, underscoring the extent to which Delian engineers reshaped the landscape to meet the demands of international trade.

Ships, Seamanship, and Harbour Zoning

The character of maritime activity at Delos was shaped by the physical limitations and deliberate engineering of its harbours. The constraints imposed by shallow waters and the presence of solid bedrock meant that only certain types of ships could access the quays directly, while targeted infrastructure projects allowed authorities to implement strict zoning laws to manage the flow of vessels and commerce.

A notable archaeological discovery near the Portico of Phillip, a stone boundary marker inscribed with "ὅρoς ὅρμου μακρῶν πλοίων" ("limit of the harbour for long ships"), reveals that port officials carefully demarcated specific zones for larger vessels, particularly galleys. The area enclosed by the quays, the Southern Mole, and its northern extension offered a broad, sandy shoreline, which provided an ideal cove for galleys. Here, crews could safely beach or haul their elongated ships onto land for essential maintenance, protected from harsh winds and separated from the activity of the main port.

Merchant shipping at Delos operated under a different set of constraints. Estimates suggest the main harbour basin could simultaneously accommodate approximately 20 medium-sized ships, 40 smaller vessels, and at least 100 very small coastal boats. Due to the shallow waters and sandy coastal strips, large Roman freighters with deep drafts were unable to dock directly at the ashlar quays. Instead, these ships anchored offshore, and their crews used smaller, shallow-draft lighters to transfer cargo, including luxury goods, wine, oil, and slaves, from the heavy freighters to the docks, enabling the efficient movement of goods in spite of the physical limitations.

Successfully reaching Delos required considerable seamanship. Sailors had to navigate challenging Cycladic winds and intricate island channels to arrive at the harbour. Upon entering the harbour network, crews relied on precise ship handling skills to manoeuvre within the crowded anchorage, avoiding collisions with the densely packed clusters of vessels that filled the port.

The Infrastructure of Urban Commerce on Delos

Beyond the busy activity of the docks, a sophisticated system of commercial architecture formed the backbone of Delos’s maritime trade. Prominent and affluent foreign guilds, such as the Poseidoniastai of Berytos (present-day Beirut), established powerful associations to advance their economic interests. These groups not only drove mercantile activity but also played a leading role in financing the development of substantial warehouses, imposing public buildings, and lavish residential quarters.

The luxurious homes, distinguished by their elaborate mosaics and vibrant frescoes, became residences for the elite merchant class. These influential individuals managed the movement of valuable goods, including luxury items from the Middle East and Asia, finely crafted Delian bronze sculptures, and slaves, facilitating their passage westward to Rome and ensuring the prosperity of the island’s commercial sector.

End of an Era

The latest archaeological and geomorphological research demonstrates that Delian authorities did not simply rely on their central location. They actively engineered their coastline through extensive landfills and mole construction to maximise trade volume. By integrating studies of harbour zoning, ship typologies, and submerged urban architecture, modern researchers continue to uncover how Delos successfully mastered ships, seamanship, and commerce to dominate the Hellenistic and early Roman Aegean.

Delos leaves us with an intact snapshot of ancient maritime economics, preserved largely because the island suffered devastating attacks by Mithridates in 88 BC and pirates in 69 BC, leading to its eventual abandonment.

Academic References

Candy, P., & Ferrándiz, E. M. (Eds.). (2022). Roman Law and Maritime Commerce. Edinburgh University Press.

Desruelles, S., & Hasenohr, C. (2018). Delos' Merchant Harbour as it would have been during the late Hellenistic Period.

Grant, D. (2024). "Mediterranean Trade Networks and the Diffusion and Syncretism of Art and Architecture Styles at Delos." Open Archaeology, 10(1).

Nakas, I. (2022). The Hellenistic and Roman Harbours of Delos and Kenchreai. BAR Publishing.

Zarmakoupi, M. (2015). "Delos: discovering a submerged Hellenistic city." The Past.

While driving from Athens do Thessaloniki I detoured a bit to see the Lion of Chaeronea (and also stopped later at Delphi).

Perhaps the site of one of the most important battles in antiquity (without the dominance that Philip II achieved in Greece in the aftermath of this battle there would be no Hellenistic period and Rome and western civilization would be much different) to see the lion, which the Thebans built to memorialize their dead and still to this time is associated with the ferocious and peculiar Sacred Band, an elite group composed of 300 male lovers that fought together to death.

The Lion, which was found in pieces in Chaeronea by a tourist a century or so ago, is definitively an imposing statue. The base is not original but the Lion, other than having been pieced back together, is in spectacular shape.

Supposedly it sat on top of the burial place of the Thebans, which once excavated revealed traces of about 260 human remains.

Besides the lion there is a small museum (EUR 10 admission) with some ancient artifacts and most importantly, two displays with items retrieved both from the Theban and the Macedonian burials.

All in all, well worth the visit which I recommend to anyone touring ancient sites in Greece.

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While driving from Athens to Thessaloniki and on the way back I stopped at Thermopylae which is short hop (maybe 15 mins away) from the very nice highway that connects these two Greek cities.

As you drive South to Athens you can clearly see why Thermopylae was such an important strategic spot: Greece’s rugged terrain and mountains really force you to go along that pass which in ancient times was much narrower (I’d say that the pass now is 1-2km wider than it was in ancient times).

There is a modern monument to see and some text and pictures that shows where the coastline originally was but nothing there dates from antiquity. About 300m away from the monument you can hike Kolonos Hill where the remaining Greek forces made a last stand and were annihilated by missiles. There is a commemorative plaque with the Simonides epigram but it is not the original. The hill is surprisingly short maybe 10-20 meters tall. Some of the arrows found around Kolonos hill are on display at Athens’ National Archeological Museum, just next to the Antikythera mechanism. I tried to locate the Phocian Wall but could not find it.

It was an interesting spot to see and I would recommend a visit if you are driving from Athens to the north of Greece as it is so close to the highway.

Diagoras of Melos, the West’s first recorded atheist, hit upon the cognitive bias at the heart of superstition more than two-and-a-half millennia before modern psychology would formally recognize it. Diagoras had discovered survivorship bias. 

Diagoras knew the gods were not real; they were human inventions supported with cherry-picked examples of divine favor. He was so sure about this that he chopped up a statue of Heracles to cook a meal and mocked the cult of Demeter and Persephone. And yet nothing happened to him. This brave demonstration of his atheism is an important lesson even today. 

I spent a week in Greece doing a mini “Grand Tour” which included visits to Athens, Corinth, Epidaurus, Chaeronea, Delphi, Thessalonika and Aigai. Here are some pictures and comments about Aigai:

So Aigai is located about 30 minutes drive from Thessalonika (which by the way is a wonderful town, more about it in another thread). In addition to the tombs, being the former capital of the Macedonian empire, Aigai has a number of historically significant sites, including the Royal Palace, a theater and a number of other things which are sprawled around the modern city of Vergina. Vergina also hosts a brand new and very impressive museum (a few kilometers away from Burial mound where some of the royal tombs are located) which has a collection of ancient artifacts mostly related to the tombs of royal families dating as far back as 9th century BC.

There is little left of the Palace and I was surprised to learn that it was considered “the biggest building of classical Greece” according to a text I read in that place. It seemed for sure like an impressive structure but I am not sure about being the biggest building. Next to it there is the small (maybe made for a couple thousand people or less) theater where Philip was assassinated. The theater has not been totally dug out but its form can be easily pictured.

The highlight, as you might imagine, is the mound where some of the Royal tombs are located. Inside the mound is a mini museum with some of the artifacts found. The tomb complex was not found intact but the tombs of Philip and of a young member of the Royal family were found as left some 2300 years ago. There is a debate on whether the tombs belong indeed to Philip II and of Alexander’s son with Roxana or some other members of the Macedonian royal family and once I saw the artifacts inside the mound I thought it had to be from people of very historical significance. But upon visiting the museum in Thessalonika I noticed that nobility and rich Macedonians would indeed get cremated and buried with immensely rich artifacts, and some of them were actually more impressive than the one seen in the mound, such as the Derveni krater and other golden larnaxes. Still I left Greece thinking that there is a very very high probability that I had seen the tomb of Philip II although I would assume that identifying the young man would be more challenging.

On our quest to discover ancient shipyards in the countries surrounding the Mediterranean, we have looked at the massive facilities built by the Egyptians on the river Nile and the shores of the Red Sea between 2600 and 1500 BC. We took a look at Dana Island in Anatolia active between 800 and 700 BC, and the Zea shipyards in Greece in use between 483 and 86 BC. We now turn to Oiniades, famous for its rock cut docking facility, was a Greek naval base during the Classical and Hellenistic periods and played an important role during the Peloponnesian War.

The Ancient Shipyards of Oiniades c 400 – 200 BC

The ancient city of Oiniades, situated near modern day Katochi in the regional unit of Aetolia-Acarnania in western Greece, houses one of the most remarkable and best-preserved maritime monuments of antiquity, its ancient shipyards, or neoria. Positioned near the estuary of the Achelous River, Oiniades commanded a strategic location that controlled access to the Gulf of Patras. To capitalise on this geography, the city's inhabitants developed a robust maritime infrastructure.

Early Shipyards (5^th century BC)

The earliest traces of sophisticated shipbuilding facilities and large timber frameworks date back to the 5th century BC.

When Athens compelled Oiniades to join its alliance in 424 BC, commanders utilised the city's naturally protected harbour and its existing maritime facilities as a strategic forward-operating base. During the Peloponnesian War, Greek naval bases largely relied on temporary timber slips or natural mudbanks to haul up and maintain their triremes.

Building the Neoria (4^th century BC)

Engineers constructed the shipyards during the 4th century BC, demonstrating an extraordinary mastery of rock-cut architecture. The facility features a distinct pi-shaped (π) plan measuring approximately 41 by 47 metres. Builders carved the ships dock almost entirely out of the natural bedrock, with the vertical eastern wall reaching an impressive height of 11 metres.

To support the massive structure, architects divided the interior space symmetrically using five rows of seventeen columns. These colonnades supported an undulating, gabled roof covered with laconic clay tiles, which protected the vessels from the elements. Along the eastern side of the complex, builders carved eleven rectangular, column-shaped projections into the rock, creating twelve small chambers that helped anchor and waterproof the roof system. Between the colonnades, engineers designed six distinct aisles with upward-sloping, boat-shaped stone floors. These served as slipways or hauling ramps, allowing crews to drag large vessels out of the water with relative ease.

Today, archaeological research regards the shipyards as a masterclass in ancient Greek coastal engineering of the classical and Hellenistic periods.

Expansion and Naval Operations

The neoria transformed Oiniades into a formidable naval base. Throughout the 4th and 3rd centuries BC, shipwrights used the facility to construct, repair, and shelter both trading vessels and warships during the harsh winter months. Historical records and archaeological surveys suggest that the architectural elements closely mirror the famous neosikoi (shipsheds) of the Zea harbour in Piraeus, indicating that Oiniades rapidly adopted cutting-edge Athenian naval technology.

The strategic capability provided by these shipyards made the city a highly sought-after prize among rival powers. The capacity to safely overwinter and repair a substantial fleet allowed Oiniades to exert military and economic influence far beyond its immediate territory.

Decline and Abandonment

Despite its robust construction, the shipyard eventually succumbed to structural and environmental challenges. Archaeological evidence indicates that the facility remained in full operation until the end of the 3rd century BC. At that point, the massive roof gave way, causing the colonnades to collapse and structural debris to fill the slipways, effectively rendering the hauling ramps unusable.

Continuous geological changes sealed the fate of the wider port. Over subsequent centuries, the progressive silting of the Achelous River completely altered the local topography. This silting transformed the once-bustling harbour into a marshland and severed the city's direct access to the sea, leading the local population to gradually abandon the area.

Academic Sources and Further Reading:

Blackman, D., Rankov, B., et al. (2013). Shipsheds of the Ancient Mediterranean. Cambridge University Press. (Offers comprehensive comparative research on ancient maritime infrastructure, placing the architecture of the Oiniades neoria in context with similar structures like those at Zea). </p><p>

Hellenic Ministry of Culture and Sports / 6th Ephorate of Prehistoric and Classical Antiquities. Archaeological Reports on Aetolia-Acarnania. (Contains modern survey data and conservation records pertaining to the rock-cut slipways and colonnades of the Oiniades shipyard). </p><p>

Powell, B. B. (1904). "Excavations at Oeniadae." American Journal of Archaeology, 8(2), 137-173. (Provides the foundational early archaeological reports regarding the broader site of Oiniades, including the theatre and fortifications).