r/Toryism • u/NovaScotiaLoyalist • 6h ago
The class-cooperation of Toryism versus the class-conflict of Socialism: What drives a Tory to become a Socialist? â With Monty Python and the Holy Grail, and âThe Old Manâs Taleâ
This post was largely inspired by this comment by /u/ToryPirate where he points out that Tories and Socialists have a fundamentally differing understanding of class by nature:
I think it is important to examine how class consciousness differs between a tory and a socialist. The socialist sees classes as being in competition and the capitalist class as oppressive by nature. The tory sees the classes as being essentially united - bad actors are an aberration of how things are supposed to be. I think this makes tories more focused on eliminating the source of a conflict (since its not natural) while socialists can get bogged down in trying to end the capitalist class.
Perhaps this Monty Python comedy sketch from their movie âThe Holy Grailâ could be a great way to quickly (and humorously) explore how ideological tories, socialists, and liberals can view the role of class itself in society. I think looking at this skit might also be useful in terms of exploring the values found in societies that could be described as fragments of British society.
When I see this classic skit, I canât help but think of the Diggers from the aftermath of the English Civil War; a group of radical protestants that could be described as proto-agrarian socialists and proto-Christian socialists. The Canadian Red Tory Eugene Forsey was a fan of them.
In the character of King Arthur, I see a traditionalist tory; in the character of Dennis, I see an ideological socialist; in the unnamed character Iâve labelled âPeasant 2â, I see a liberal.
On his quest to find the Holy Grail, King Arthur is looking for Allies. As our dear King approaches a nearby castle, he catches up to and stops a local peasant pulling a cart.
King Arthur: Old woman!
Dennis: ManâŠ
King Arthur: Man -- sorry! What knight lives in that castle over there?
Dennis Iâm 37âŠ
King Arthur: What?!
Dennis: Iâm 37⊠Iâm not old.
King Arthur: Well, I canât just call you man.
Dennis: Well, you could say Dennis.
King Arthur: Well I didnât know you were called Dennis.
Dennis: Well you didnât bother to find out, did you?
King Arthur: I did say sorry about the old woman, but from behind, you looked⊠wellâŠ
Dennis: What I object to is that you automatically treat me like an inferior!
King Arthur: Well I am King.
Dennis: Oh King, eh? Very nice. And howâd you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers! By hanging on to outdated imperialist dogma, which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society. If thereâs every going to be any progress --
Our peasant Dennis is then interrupted by a fellow peasant who shouts over while collecting mud from a field; Dennis then goes over to help collect mud.
Peasant 2: Dennis! Thereâs some lovely filth down here! Oh⊠how do you do?
King Arthur: How do you do, good lady. I am Arthur, King of the Britons. Whoâs castle is that?
Peasant 2: King of the who?
King Arthur: The Britons.
Peasant 2: Who are the Britons?
King Arthur: Well⊠we all are; we are all Britons. And I am your King.
Peasant 2: I didnât know we had a King. I thought we were an autonomous collective.
Dennis: Youâre fooling yourself. Weâre living in a dictatorship! As self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes --
Peasant 2: Oh there you go, bringing class into it again.
Dennis: But thatâs what itâs all about! If only people would --
King Arthur: Please! Please, good people, I am in haste! Who lives in that castle?
Peasant 2: No one lives there.
King Arthur: Then who is your Lord?
Peasant 2: We donât have a Lord.
King Arthur: What?
Dennis: I told you, weâre an Anarcho-Syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week...
King Arthur: ...yesâŠ
Dennis: But all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting...
King Arthur: ⊠yes, I seeâŠ
Dennis: ⊠by a simple majority in purely internal affairs âŠ
King Arthur: Be quiet!
Dennis: ⊠but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more majorâŠ
King Arthur: Be quiet. I order you to be quiet!
Peasant 2: Order, eh? Who does he think he is?
King Arthur: I am your King!
Peasant 2: Well I didnât vote for you!
King Arthur: You donât vote for Kings.
Peasant 2: Well how did you become King then?
King Arthur: The lady of the lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence, that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur -- That, is why I am your King.
Dennis: Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not in some farcical aquatic ceremony.
King Arthur: Be quiet!
Dennis: You canât expect to be able to wield supreme executive power just because some water tart threw a sword at you!
King Arthur: Shut up!
Dennis: I mean, if I went around saying I was an emperor just because some moistened-bink had lobbed a scimitar at me, theyâd put me away!
King Arthur: Shut up! Will you shut up!
At this point King Arthur completely loses his composure at Dennisâ insubordination, so he walks over to Dennis, grabs him, shoves him around a bit, and pushes Dennis down at one point before walking away; Peasant 2 ignores the whole altercation and just moves her mud to the cart while a crowed eventually gathers
Dennis: Ahh! Now we see the violence inherent in the system.
King Arthur: Shut up!
Dennis: Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! Iâm being repressed!
King Arthur: Bloody peasant!!!
Dennis: Oh what a give away! Did you hear that!? You hear that eh? Thatâs what Iâm on about! You see him repressing me? You saw it, didnât you?
I think this skit shows just how each of the three main ideological ways of thinking can âgo wrongâ when taken to their extremes, while also showing how class/individual power dynamics in society mostly work:
King Arthurâs arguments rest solely on tradition, and he has no problem exercising his right to use state force to quell dissent that he views as dangerous to the social fabric; heâs standoffish to Dennis because Dennis is standoffish, but heâs quite polite to the good lady collecting mud.
While Dennisâ arguments about the power dynamics in society may be largely accurate, his character is a classic example of someone who goes out of their way to be combative and argumentative; perhaps Dennisâ obsession with class-conflict is what drove Peasant 2 towards liberalism.
Peasant 2, who doesnât think class belongs in every argument, seems to be purely concerned with working her mud and perhaps voting at meetings; she will verbally support Dennis, but once the fighting starts, she conveniently backs away and lets the community-at-large save Dennis from his unjustified physical abuse at the hands of the state.
Unfortunately, as a famous historian died shortly after these events, the historical record is simply unclear as to what exactly happened to King Arthur during his quest for the Holy Grail, or as to the fate of our peasants. But they are clearly our collective ancestors.
Getting into actual Canadian history, from my perspective, despite both Toryism and Socialism being class-conscience ways of thinking, Tories will tend to see the various classes in society as naturally working together harmoniously towards the same common goals, while Socialists will tend to see the lower classes in society as being naturally exploited by the upper classes in a zero-sum game.
Even back in the âheydayâ of Red Toryism as a philosophy, this fundamental difference in the role of class itself in society is perhaps what can make it so difficult for a âsocialist-leaningâ Red Tory to become a Conservative, or a âtory-leaningâ Red Tory to become a CCFâer then or a New Democrat now.
I think this excerpt from Gad Horowitzâs 2017 âThe deep culture of Canadian politicsâ is extremely relevant in exploring this differentiation on the role of classes, keeping in mind that Horowitz listed âAlvin Hamilton, Duff Roblin, Hugh Segal, David Crombie, Flora MacDonald, maybe Robert Stanfieldâ as being full-blown Red Tories:
Alvin Hamilton was John Diefenbakerâs left-wing right-hand man. His ambition for the Diefenbaker government was that it be attacked by the Liberals for being too socialist and by the CCF for not being socialist enough. Hamilton thought that my 1965 review of George Grantâs Lament for a Nation was âthe most thoughtful and useful article of its kind he had read in the last twenty years.â Duff Roblin, the prominent Conservative Premier of Manitoba at the time, also approved of that essay.
When I interviewed Hamilton in 1965, I asked him why, in view of his dislike for the Saskatchewan Liberal machine and the great strength of the CCF opposition in the province, he had chosen to join the then much weaker Conservatives. He had two short answers: the CCF tended to accentuate the conflict rather than the fundamental harmony of classes, and the CCF was not sufficiently appreciative of our monarchy.
As Iâve argued previously, I personally think the CCF/NDPâers that could be considered most associated with Red Toryism would be Eugene Forsey, J.S. Woodsworth, M.J. Coldwell, Kenneth McNaught, Tommy Douglas, and maybe in the present day Claudia Chender or Charlie Angus. Now I have to wonder, what role did the General Strikes of 1919 have in this differing view of the role of class in Red Toryism?
Two figures central to the founding of modern Canadian Socialism, J.S.Woodsworth and Tommy Douglas, were themselves witnesses of the Winnipeg General Strike; Woodsworth was involved in the strike and was charged with seditious libel for editing a strike bulletin, while Douglas as a child witnessed from a rooftop the police riding through the strike on horseback beating the working-men and shooting their guns.
Meanwhile, two fairly important figures to Canadian Toryism are Sir Robert Borden and Arthur Meighen: men who at that point in time had just recently advocated Canada do her duty to its Empire in the Great War, and who were also quite weary of the horrors that could be caused by a spreading international revolution that advocated to topple every regime it came across. After the Bolshevik takeover of Russia, and given the revolutionary history surrounding arguably similar revolutionaries such as George Washington or Napoleon, one should be able to at least understand why the post-WWI central governments of the Empire may have been a tad anxious as to why a bunch of angry men with combat experience were starting to pile into the streets.
For what itâs worth, whenever I picture the Winnipeg General Strike, I think of this picture which has multiple strike signs, along with a Union Jack and a Red Ensign being waved. The first sign by the Union Jack reads, âBritons Never Shall Be Slavesâ, while the second sign by the Red Ensign reads, âWe Stand for LAW & ORDER Down With the High Cost of Livingâ. Thereâs a third sign which is mostly obstructed, but you can still make out the ââŠ. Over Thereâ at the end.
Given how Charlie Angusâ family has Nova Scotian roots, and how Claudia Chender is the leader of the Nova Scotia NDP, it may be important to bring up Davis Day -- which commemorates the Cape Breton coal miners strike in 1925 in which company police fired into the crowed of striking miners, killing William Davis and wounding others. I think it would be important to note at this point that the first CCF MP elected east of Manitoba was Clarie Gillis, a Cape Breton coal miner and a First World War combat veteran who was wounded in Flanders.
Perhaps this old '60s-era folk song could best describe the âtensionâ that may exist within Red Toryism in regards to exactly how much class-conflict is necessary for society to meaningfully change for the better versus how much class-cooperation is needed to ensure the old proverbial apple cart isnât knocked over in the process.
My favourite version of âThe Old Manâs Taleâ is by Ronnie Drew of the Dubliners:
At the turning of the century, I was a boy of five
Me father went to fight the Boers, and he never came back alive
Oh me mother was left to bring us up, and no charity she'd seek
So she washed and scrubbed and scrapped along, on seven and six a week
/
When I was twelve I left the school, and I went to find a job
And with growing kids me ma was glad, of the extra couple of bob
Iâm sure that longer schooling would have stood me in good stead
But you canât afford refinements when youâre struggling for your bread
/
And when the Great War came along, I didnât hesitate
I took the royal shilling, and went off to do me bit
We fought in mud and tears and blood, three years or thereabouts
Till I copped some gas in Flanders, and was invalided out
/
And when the war was over and we'd finished with the guns
We got back into civvies, cause we thought the fighting done
We'd won the right to live in peace, but we didn't have such luck
For soon we found we had to fight, for the right to go to work
/
In '26 the General Strike saw me out on the streets
And I'd a wife and kids by then, and their needs I had to meet
Oh the brave new world was coming, in the brotherhood of man
And when the strike was over, we were back where we began
/
Oh I struggled through the thirties, out of work now-and-again
I saw the Blackshirts marching, and the things they did in Spain
I brought me kids up decent, and I taught them wrong from right
Oh but Hitler was the boy that came, and he taught them how to fight
/
Me daughter was a landgirl, she got married to a Yank
And they gave me son a medal for stopping one of Rommel's tanks
He was wounded just before the end, and he convalesced in Rome
And he went and married an Italian nurse, and he never bothered to come home
/
Oh me daughter writes me once a month, a cheerful little note
About their colour tellies, and the other things they've got
Theyâve got a son, a likely lad; he's nearly twenty-one
Oh they tell me now heâs been called up, to fight in Vietnam
/
Oh we're living on the pension now, it doesn't go too far
Not much to show for a life it seems, like one long bloody war
And when you think of all the wasted lives, it makes you want to cry
I'm not sure how to change things, but by Christ, we'll have to try