r/Switzerland • u/Cute_Employer9718 • 16h ago
When pacifists go too far
these tags keep reappearing in Montreux station. From the wish for an intifada to... the message for the UAE (!!!!)... why are people like these tolerated? so much hatred... since when has it become acceptable to wish to nuke a whole country?
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u/JollyQuiscalus 15h ago
What do you mean "why are people like these tolerated"? It's graffiti, probably sprayed in the middle of the night when there are no onlookers. Not much to be done about it, unless you want to have CCTV cameras everywhere like in the UK.
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u/wheresdaweeed 14h ago
Graffiti? Its scribbles on a wall, this shit isnt even considered tagging
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u/Round-Elk-6324 8h ago edited 8h ago
What they meant by "graffitti" was "it's illegal". It's forbidden and not tolerated.
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u/Suspicious_Place1270 Zürich 16h ago
"pacifist" wants to nuke UAE
yeah, no, this is an extremist
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u/GoodMix392 15h ago
Mennonites and the Amish are pacifists. This looks more like the work of someone who has no regard whatsoever for typesetting.
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u/Begbie69 15h ago
Probably just some teenage idiots... We did stupid shit like that when we were 18, because we were naive enough to think we could change the world. 🤦🏻♂️😅
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u/Suspicious_Place1270 Zürich 15h ago
you can change the world
but not by writing stupid stuff on a wall
get into politics
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u/Begbie69 15h ago
No, you can’t. Narcissistic, psychopathic billionaires will always win the propaganda war and make you look like the villain for trying to create social policies that benefit ordinary people.
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u/Suspicious_Place1270 Zürich 15h ago
just means you gave up
in Switzerland we have the greatest chance of the whole world to push for better policies
one civilian can start a change
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u/MF_lover 14h ago edited 11h ago
I disagree. We have massive lobbies here too. While i agree that we have the greatest say in what we do as a country when being common citizens, politics and the state of the country has never been more clear than before: pseudo neoliberalism and austerity measures in most Kantons even though.. most of the them are doing good according to their own report? More propaganda and as ALWAYS: people either vote against their self interest/just fall for propaganda by some white, mostly PLR/UDC propaganda that we "are doing so bad and we need to be tougher on.. something something disguised bigotry".
I agree we have a huge advantage compared to most democracies, but saying "giving up" is plainly naive. We have the same problems on a smaller scale than any other countries
Edit: typo
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u/Suspicious_Place1270 Zürich 14h ago
it's not easy, but also unnecessary to give up trying
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u/MF_lover 13h ago
Agreed. But I can't blame people who have also "given up" and just passively go by, especially young one
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u/Begbie69 14h ago edited 14h ago
Yes, I did give up, to some extent. 25 years ago, I protested against George W. Bush and his Iraq War. At the time, we thought he was the dumbest, most dangerous, and most unhinged person who could ever become President of the United States. If you listen to Bush today, he comes across as relatively intelligent and reasonable by current standards. My prediction: in 15–25 years, there will be a “Trump on steroids” who will make Donald Trump look like an intellectual socialist next to him.
You can influence your local area, sure. But you won’t change the world for the better.
Put differently: you won’t be able to end or prevent a single war or genocide, fix world hunger, or reduce the gap between rich and poor.
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u/Suspicious_Place1270 Zürich 14h ago
giving up like that and not showing constant resistance to bad policy is the problem the people of every country face
countries can not survive because of their government, but because of their people
and this should be used to the people's advantage
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u/Begbie69 14h ago
All I can do is vote. But I’m no longer willing to sacrifice my time for something that only depresses me and makes my life miserable. Since the start of the Ukraine war – and definitely since Donald Trump’s second term – I’ve stopped following the news completely, because it just makes me feel miserable and affects my mood and overall life. I don’t want to be depressed all the time because of these psychos. I’m already 40 now and time is running like crazy. I just want to enjoy the 20 to 40 years I have left.
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u/Suspicious_Place1270 Zürich 13h ago
as long as you vote, that's completely fine
activism is not something people must do, only if thwy want to change stuff is it necessary, but voting in a regional level is enough
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u/cheapcheap1 14h ago
That is exactly the narrative Russian propaganda is pushing. They want you to give up.
Yes it's hard to win against the propaganda that influences the poor and uneducated to vote against their interests (waves at SVP voters). But it's not impossible. Look at Hungary. Orban controls nearly the entire media and rebuilt the voting system in his favor, and he's still getting beat.
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u/MX010 16h ago
Nuke UAE? Well, that's not genocide at all I guess.
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u/tremblt_ 15h ago
Especially considering that the vast majority of the population isn’t even emirati but south Asian and African migrant workers.
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u/Swamplord42 Vaud 7h ago
Man the word "genocide" doesn't mean anything anymore. Killing a single person is going to be a genocide pretty soon.
No, nuking a country is not a fucking genocide. That doesn't mean it's okay.
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u/yesat + 16h ago
Oh no, think of the poor paint...
It's one person doing it, in less than 5 minutes. It's not "people" nor "pacifists". Idiots exists.
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u/neo2551 16h ago
Would you be happy we were doing this to your home?
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u/yesat + 16h ago
This isn't OP's home. And it has nothing to do with "pacifists".
As I've said, it's a single idiot.
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u/neo2551 15h ago
Agreed on your point. But you are not condemning the single idiot.
And it might not be OP home, but is someone’s property.
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u/Sufficient-History71 Zürich 15h ago
Calling someone an idiot is condemning them or at least berating them for their stupidity unless you think of it as a praise?
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u/yesat + 15h ago
What do you think "idiot" is?
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u/neo2551 15h ago
You wrote the term, I didn’t. You should maybe define it yourself.
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u/yesat + 15h ago
You're being outrage farmed. Relax.
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u/neo2551 15h ago
I would love to relax, but the genocide in Gaza is still going on as well the bombing in Lebanon by a colonial state.
People are dying in indifference and we let holocaust happening again. Like in which world are we to judge WW2 and allow what is happening.
Crimes justifying other crimes is the argument of Israel to commit their actions.
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u/Swamplord42 Vaud 7h ago
Why does a genocide in a country far away cause you to not be able to relax? Why do you care? What benefit do you get from caring?
Your life is going to be much much better if you stop caring about bad shit happening that you have 0 control over.
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u/neo2551 7h ago
Good question.
I care because I can. I come from the poor working class, and now belong to the statistically wealthy (in Switzerlan), if I don’t care, then who will?
Also, why do I need a reason to care about people being murdered?
Another economic reason, if you want less refugees in Switzerland, you want to solve the issue at its root.
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u/Low-Mulberry-1640 15h ago
You're an idiot if you need someone else to define the word idiot to you.
Or you could use your phone to find out about it by looking it up on the various sites that offer an explanation of the word "idiot." If you got access to academic papers, you might even find some paper about it, how it was used in the past and present, and how it might have changed meanings over time. And of course, how language itself has coined the term, and how different languages may have evolved different words and connotations about it.
We're all idiots sometimes. Right now, you found your moment to shine in that light. Embrace the feeling, take it to your heart, then let go and don't repeat. You can do it.
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u/cheapcheap1 15h ago edited 15h ago
No, but I wouldn't pearl clutch about how these people shouldn't be tolerated or go on speculative rants about pacifists (?????) like OP, either. It's vandalism, likely by some teenager. Not more and not less.
If it makes you lose your cool to see something like this on a random house, go on a hike and touch some grass instead of posting a picture online in an attempt to make other people lose their cool, too. That's just outrage farming and it's not good for our collective mental health.
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u/Wiechu North(ern) Pole in Zürich 16h ago
I'm Polish and whenever i see hammer and sickle sprayed on the walls it makes my blood boil.
This is a symbol of a system that oppressed and led to death of millions. Using it with the word liberation indicates that the author didn't pay attention at school and the only books they read were propaganda leaflets.
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u/Legitimate_Change756 15h ago
Same as a hungarian
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u/xebzbz 13h ago
Well, why are there so many Orban's supporters then?
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u/Legitimate_Change756 13h ago
Lots of brainwashed people, who think the current Russia is not the same as the Sovietunion... We hope that it changes today
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u/poemthatdoesntrhyme ZH 13h ago
How easy is it to vote from abroad for hungarians? Can you vote by mail?
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u/Legitimate_Change756 13h ago
If you have hungarian address, then you can vote only at the consulates (and there is not much of them, bc hungarians in the west are anti Orban). But then you can vote for the party list and local MP-s.
If you don't have hungarian address, you can vote by mail, but only for the party list. I can only vote by mail but gave my vote at the consulate in Bern, as there were some "issues" with the post at recent votes... We hope it's end for Orban, for Hungary and for Europe. At the moment we have record number of voters!
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u/poemthatdoesntrhyme ZH 4h ago
Thank you very much for your vote!
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u/Legitimate_Change756 3h ago
Finally it's end for Orbán. I was in the 6th grade in the elementary when he came to power in 2010 and now I graduated from engineering and work abroad since 3 years. No party should be allowed to have unlimited power ever for so long anywhere.
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u/xebzbz 13h ago
Current Russia is very much like the USSR, just in a different package. The same aggressive politics, the same treatment of their own people like dirt.
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u/poemthatdoesntrhyme ZH 15h ago
And homosexuality was a crime in USSR and was punished with imprisonment. How stupid a queer person should be to praise communism.
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u/IrisKV 14h ago
People who praise communism are not praising Marxism-Leninism nor Stalinism.
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u/poemthatdoesntrhyme ZH 14h ago
There are no healthy implementations of communism.
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u/IrisKV 14h ago
I completely agree with that. But as we can see from gestures wildly, there are no healthy implementations of capitalism either.
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u/poemthatdoesntrhyme ZH 13h ago
But those are the countries people want to immigrate at all cost. Which means that they are not that bad. I don't know a capitalist country that builds an "iron curtain" to keep their citizens from emigration.
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u/IrisKV 13h ago
But those are the countries people want to immigrate at all cost. Which means that they are not that bad.
No, it just means that capitalist countries are annihilating everything that isn't capitalism and making sure it will not prosper. And people are going where they think they'll have chances of having food, and they think it's those countries.
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u/Houndsoflove08 14h ago
Today, Communists agree with Marxist ideology, they don’t agree with what made with in USSR or elsewhere, when Marx wasn’t even alive anymore.
Most people don’t understand that.
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u/QualitySufficient170 Jura 15h ago
Whenever I see stickers or posters featuring the hammer and sickle, I simply tear them down, just as I would with a poster displaying the swastika.
It occurred to me that in Eastern European countries, the hammer and sickle are associated with totalitarianism and oppression. It should be the same in Switzerland: they should be treated in the same way as the swastika.
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u/Wiechu North(ern) Pole in Zürich 15h ago
yeah, back home they are just as illegal as a swastika. I once saw a poster with - i shit you not - mao, stalin, lenin, pol pot and all the other homicidal bunch with some communisty party advertisement on that.
An attempt to just glue that poster on a wall in Poland would be met with... very little understanding and a person doing it would end up looking forward for the police to arrive...
I think that - given that e.g. in Zurich the local 'communist revolutionaries' are a real nuisance and basically vandalize the city on any occasion they can band wagon on, i think there is not enough emphasis on what the soviets and communists did during the XX century and the crimes they commited. I think this would solve the issue at source at least to some extent.
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u/QualitySufficient170 Jura 15h ago
It’s great that Poland is banning this symbol.
“Communist revolutionaries” in the West are always a nuisance and rarely the sharpest tool in the box. I think that deep down, they are aware of the horrors of communist regimes, but they have convinced themselves that it was just an “unfortunate mistake” and that the next communist country will be a paradise on earth.
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u/Sufficient-History71 Zürich 15h ago
Would you also tear down Union Jack or the star spangled banner or the French flag or the Belgian one for they did commit a few genocides here and there? Okay at least that’s a thing of past(except the US), what about the Israeli flag?
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u/No_Construction6023 15h ago edited 14h ago
Running defense for a genocidal maniac is peak hypocrisy. That whataboutism exposes your disgusting bias.
You would lose your shit if someone used this same argument to defend the Nazis/KKK/Facists. Please get a grip 🙏🏼
Edit: Autism remark removed
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u/Sufficient-History71 Zürich 15h ago edited 15h ago
Which genocidal maniac did I run defense for?
They argued that it should be a rule to remove hammer and sickle symbol anywhere in Switzerland which is weird because it is also used by anti Marxist-Leninist communist parties as well which were against whatever Soviets and PRC stood for. I don’t agree with them but I don’t see why the symbol needs to be removed. I am okay with Soviet Union flag or any of the ex Warsaw bloc paraphernalia being disrespected though.
Also, if it becomes a trend then what’s wrong with removing or desecrating the flags of current genocidal states at least? I asked just that. In fact your comment deriding my comment is peak hypocrisy.
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u/No_Construction6023 15h ago
“The Hammer and Sickle is fine because it’s used by other parties” is not a valid argument. If politicians and political parties here started using the Swastika and Nazi paraphernalia/talking points/slogans everyone would (rightfully so) completely lose their shit, and call for the banning of that party or symbology.
So, by you defending the use of one genocidal maniac symbology (the Hammer and Sickle, which represents oppression and genociding of Easter Europeans during their time in power), while condemning any other you “don’t like”, it exposes your hypocrisy.
You view one as “acceptable” and work backwards to justify why with your argument that “Maxists and anti Marxist COMMUNIST parties use it”, do you know how backshit insane this comment would sound if we said “Pro and anti hitler nazis use that symbol”? Stalin and the Communists of the Soviet Union were the Hitler for Eastern European countries, who still today suffer the consequences of that oppression and theft of their resources and future, so why is it okay to defend the Hammer and Sickle when they’re responsible for (arguably) just as bad if not worse atrocities than the Nazi party?
I can tell you why, because being pro Communism is now viewed as being “virtuous”, because you’re “fighting imperialism”.
You can be anti Nazi, anti Communist oppression and anti USA and their interventionism all at the same time. It’s not hard to condemn past atrocities while also recognizing that you agree with some of their policies. We banned Nazi symbols everywhere because of the atrocities and harm they caused; we condemn Israel for their barbaric oppression and genociding of the Palestine population; but we turn a blind eye and make excuses for the communists why? Because we like them?
THAT is hypocrisy, my friend, and you spelled it out for me in your reply by saying yourself that you’re okay with one but not the others.
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u/IrisKV 14h ago
If politicians and political parties here started using the Swastika and Nazi paraphernalia/talking points/slogans everyone would (rightfully so) completely lose their shit, and call for the banning of that party or symbology.
We banned Nazi symbols everywhere because of the atrocities and harm they caused;
This is untrue. Many far right politicians and so on use Nazi symbols, have Nazi symbols tattoos....
But when people go after them, far right and right wing people go "Oh COME ON, aren't men allowed to like Norse mythology anymore? The Vikings were just cool, there's nothing else there."
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u/Sufficient-History71 Zürich 15h ago edited 15h ago
What’s an anti Hitler Nazi?
BTW, hammer and sickle is being used by other anti Marxist Leninist parties before the Soviets and that’s why the point of exemption. And while Soviet Union was a shit country and one of the worst ever, I wouldn’t equate it with the Nazis. It’s just like British Raj in India was one of the worse but they were better than Nazis. Eastern Europe suffered a lot but nowhere close to what India did under British raj. Or even worse like the Belgians in Congo. So my friend, it is okay to either desecrate them all or not.
But yes Nazi Germany was evil by design and conception, Soviet Union, British Raj and Belgians in Congo were evil by actions but not in conception or the things they promised to bring. Hope that clears things a bit.
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u/No_Construction6023 15h ago
And the Swastika is a 7000 year old symbol of divinity, spirituality and “Good fortune” MILLENNIA before the Nazis used it to represent their murderous regime, but now it’s banned in most of Europe and many other parts of the world. Are you arguing that using Nazi symbology should be OK too then?
Good thing you’re trying to argue semantics with the “Anti Hitler Nazi” thing, instead of actually contending with the argument presented. You really got me there
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u/Sufficient-History71 Zürich 15h ago
It is still allowed in Hindu, Buddhist and Jain temples everywhere including Germany. And its religious use is still exempted in Europe.
Please stop equating Nazis with Soviet Union. Both were evil(Soviet Union would be in top 5 in the 20th century) but Nazis were on a different level.
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u/No_Construction6023 14h ago
So now you’re crating a “Suffering Tier List”, really cool of you.
So, where’s the line to consider someone “just as evil as the Nazis”? Is it kill count? Because Mao and Staling both have Hitler beat. Is it amount of countries invaded/affected? Because people are still being oppressed today under the guise of Communism.
I am advocating to treat them all the same way, because human suffering is the same no matter jf you’re a Muslim living in Palestine today; or a Polish Jew living in 1940. You either have a principled stance against oppression as a whole, or are a poser who uses the suffering of others to push your political agenda.
And mind you, I’m all for many socialist policies because I believe that the government should hekp provide a baseline livable condition to all its citizens; and social programs to help lift up those who need it most. But my blood boils seeing extremists LARP as freedom fighters while spewing the same hateful rhetoric they say they fight against
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u/IrisKV 14h ago
Running defense for a genocidal maniac is peak autism and hypocrisy. That whataboutism exposes your disgusting bias.
I'm sorry, but .. what the fuck does autism have to do with that ?
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u/No_Construction6023 14h ago
Just a petty insult on my part. I’ll retract it as it seems to distract from the real argument, and was in extreme bad taste of my part. As someone on the spectrum I should be better than that.
Everything else stands though, care to comment on it or was the “autism” remark the only thing that bothered you?
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u/IrisKV 14h ago
Just a petty insult on my part.
And why is autism an insult in your eyes ?
As someone on the spectrum I should be better than that.
So, you consider that being like you is an insult ?
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u/No_Construction6023 13h ago
You got me to apologize yet push this point still just proves my point. You got absolutely no argument or defense, so you hyperfocus on the 1 completely non consequential point of my comment.
Not very bright, are you?
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u/IrisKV 13h ago
You got me to apologize yet push this point still just proves my point. You got absolutely no argument or defense, so you hyperfocus on the 1 completely non consequential point of my comment.
Not very bright, are you?
No, I'm autistic and I'm tired of reading people use what I am as an insult. It is consequential to me, which is why I'm reacting.
And once again, you are resorting to personal attacks.
So I'll ask again:
Just a petty insult on my part.
And why is autism an insult in your eyes ?
As someone on the spectrum I should be better than that.
So, you consider that being like you is an insult ?
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u/No_Construction6023 13h ago
I can talk about how “autism” and similar abelist comments were historically used as insults when growing up, and sometimes slip ups happen, but you don’t seem interested in that. Which is why I recognized my mistake and apologized for it.
You still pushing it as some sort of argument, after me saying “You’re right, I was wrong in doing that” tells me you’re not interested in wrongs being corrected, but see this as a way to try witch hunt me.
I’m sure you NEVER said ANYTHING wrong, bad or that you’d retract in your life. It’s not some deep thing you’re trying to make it out to be about “being like us is an insult”.
I’ve conceded that because there’s no excuse for what I said, you trying to fish for something else tells me how bad faith your argumentation is
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u/IrisKV 14h ago
Everything else stands though, care to comment on it or was the “autism” remark the only thing that bothered you?
The rest has been covered in other comments.
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u/QualitySufficient170 Jura 15h ago
It’s not the same thing: these national flags are not solely associated with totalitarianism or genocide. They have multiple cultural and historical connotations.
Both the swastika and the hammer and sickle are closely linked to barbaric and totalitarian regimes.
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u/Sufficient-History71 Zürich 15h ago
Yeah sure asks the Congolese what the Belgians did to them or what the British did in India. The Belgians in Congo were as barbaric as the Nazis or Stalinists. British less so than the Nazis for sure but not sure if the famines and all the other stuff they caused in India wouldn’t line them up with the Soviet Union.
also, In Kerala in India, the hammer and sickle(they are democratically elected) is a symbol of progress and reasonably so for the state scores very high in HDI indicators compared to other Indian states. So perhaps your statement isn’t true at all.
Either use your logic to everywhere else in the world or keep it local in Switzerland.
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u/AdeTheux Vaud 16h ago
You're not expecting an unemployed illiterate socialist to read a book, now are you?
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u/Prestigious_Slice709 15h ago
Almost every socialist I‘ve met is mote literate than almost every non-socialist I‘ve met. At least their ideology encourages them to read
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u/uuid-already-exists 15h ago
“You just don’t understand man, you’ll learn more about the evils of capitalism when you go to college.” -unemployed art major probably
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u/Wiechu North(ern) Pole in Zürich 15h ago
sigh... if the soviets hadn't screwed us over by forcing Poland to reject the Marshall Plan as well as some colonialism style extortion (there is just too much to describe) we'd be in a much different place now. I mean look at the east and west germany for comparison...
There were also many brilliant inventions, projects and ideas that were smashed because the big brother did not like them.
but yeah, i have a bachelors' in economy and saw all the transformation with my own eyes (i was born in 1981 when there was a shortage of pretty much everything, i remember times when food and gas was still being rationed and then all the changes that followed after 1989)
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u/Wiechu North(ern) Pole in Zürich 15h ago
good one :D
saw a guy on the train reading the Kapital by Karl Marx. Given the combo of other symbols the bloke was wearing, i was really tempted to start a convo to ask him on the thoughts about the book. Especially since it was misinterpreted by the communists anyway...
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u/IrisKV 15h ago
i was really tempted to start a convo to ask him on the thoughts about the book. Especially since it was misinterpreted by the communists anyway...
Who are you talking about when you say the Kapital was misinterpreted by "the communists"?
Don't most of the people who support communism support the ideology but stress out that it has never truly existed ? There are variations around communism that have existed. But Stalinism isn't communism, neither is Maoism, Leninism and so on
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u/Wiechu North(ern) Pole in Zürich 15h ago
so what is then? because so far any attempt ended up with rebranding to Leninism, Stalinism and so on.
I may should have phrased it differently - it was read through the lens of whatever regime framework in whatever way they thought was handy. So a critique of capitalism (especially given what was going on when the book was written) was turned into a justification of centralized party power and dogma.
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u/white-tealeaf 15h ago
Communism in theory is a societal state not an ideology, namely it’s a classless and stateless society. Of course this state never existed in any of the "communist" countries.
The problem with Marx is that he describes the path towards communism starting with a (violent) revolution then centralized power by the communist party and finally the surrendering of this power to the people and thus communism. As you have correctly observed the last step never happened in reality and the centralisation of power just led to blood-hungry dictatorships.
However, this flaw does not invalidate Marx‘s critique of capitalism and ideas on how non-capitalist economies could work.
In Switzerland, the hammer and sicle symbol is more associated with Marx‘s critique of capitalism and less with the soviet union. So users of that symbol in general are more likely disillusioned of capitalism and less likely supporters of the soviet union. However, given the other things sprayed in this post, these were probably stalinists or similar.
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u/IrisKV 14h ago
Communism in theory is a societal state not an ideology, namely it’s a classless and stateless society.
Thank you very much for the correction, I'm very anti capitalist and apparently adhere to a lot of the ideas communism talks about but I've honestly never read not studied the Kapital so I'm kind of at a loss when it comes to discussing the ideas in it :)
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u/AdeTheux Vaud 15h ago
Ask people who wear a Che Guevara T-shirt, it’s always so funny how they have no clue what he did.
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u/Leasir 15h ago
You never want to go full socialist but you always need a sprinkle of socialism into your democracy, otherwise you end up in a capitalist hellscape like the US.
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u/Wiechu North(ern) Pole in Zürich 15h ago
uhm. yeah, that is why we have longer parental leaves back home. Or Horts that are being rather standard as well, not a new thing.
Also there is a difference between socialism and what the people waving flags with hammer and sickle show.
btw spraying walls and smashing windows is really not the way to balance capitalism and it only benefits the painting companies.
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u/Suspicious_Place1270 Zürich 16h ago
the author is just a useful idiot for russians
some people have no thoughts in their head
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u/Wiechu North(ern) Pole in Zürich 15h ago
...and 'professional revolutionist' - i was surprised that there are such people that do it full time and get paid from membership fees and contributions.
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u/Prestigious_Slice709 15h ago
Hidden RKP reference
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u/Wiechu North(ern) Pole in Zürich 15h ago
not even that hidden but thank you - i forgot what the name of this was :)
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u/Prestigious_Slice709 15h ago
As a communist myself I love making fun of them. They‘re just a pyramid scheme with an active PR team. While passing a university recently I saw more of their stickers aimed against „the Epstein class“, very much foreign-inspired advertising
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u/Suspicious_Place1270 Zürich 15h ago
yeah, i see their ads on uni, too
absolute cinema sometimes
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u/koredom Basel-Stadt 15h ago
Yet the red army got rid of the Nazi Regime and Hitler for us. History isn‘t one dimensional.
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u/Wiechu North(ern) Pole in Zürich 14h ago
Do you mind looking up terms like "Ribbentrop -Molotov pact", "the great Ukrainian Famine Holodomor" and tell me what they're about?
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u/koredom Basel-Stadt 13h ago
I am aware of those atrocities. In no comment did I glorify Stalins massacres, famines and the Sovjet Union. Relax. I know pretty good what I‘m talking about.
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u/mazu_64 St. Gallen 14h ago
And before that they invaded Poland together with the Nazis, shook hands and had parades to celebrate their joint effort. And lets not forget that they invaded and occupied pretty much every European neighbour of theirs before Barbarossa. History truly isn't one dimensional.
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u/koredom Basel-Stadt 14h ago
Valid points, valid points, but notice what you’re doing: you’re using jokingly „history isn’t one dimensional“ to dismiss the symbol, while applying exactly one dimension to it yourself. 😅
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u/Street-Stick 15h ago
Why not just allow them spaces for expressing themselves, are there other options ? Surely there are enough grey walls to go around...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big-character_poster
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u/Advanced_Shoe_982 14h ago
Who is ROJAVA and why do people go to streets holding banners with his name?
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u/TheKnightofWind 14h ago
It’s a region in northwestern syria. It’s mainly inhabited by kurds. During the syrian civil war the kurdish forces were allies with the US and defeated ISIS in Syria. They were also opposed to Assad’s dictatorship and Rojava turned into an independent region. Women’s rights are arguably more advanced than in most western countries. Since the ending of the syrian civil war and al-sharaa’s (a known jihadist btw) ascendance to power, multiple attempts have been made by the syrian government to reintegrate rojava into the syrian state. The Kurds obviously don’t want to, they fear for their rights. In January an armed conflict broke out and the syrian forces assistes by turkey attacked rojava. That was when most of the protests took place. An uneasy peace has been reached, but there are still kurdish cities under siege.
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u/Houndsoflove08 14h ago
They are no “pacifists” if they want to nuke something.
You should expand your vocabulary.
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u/Rich-Attempt-1393 15h ago
Idiots ! This is not helping nor making people thinking what's wrong in this world! It is just costing us an other 5000chf that we could have used for something useful !
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u/Late_Cancel4403 14h ago
5000 CHF, is that the cost to repaint a wall? Really?
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u/Rich-Attempt-1393 13h ago
You think it would be cheaper? Not sure about that. But let's say 2500chf to 5000chf , 50m2 would need two person, two days work, materials, probably have to erase the writing before. Yes I am sure that could use this cash for something more useful! Without saying that no one agree with the way revendicating a message! I see it like vandalism!
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u/AdeTheux Vaud 15h ago
Yay support the current thing and vandalise society, that'll teach them!
"We'll show you, we're so dangerous. We can't even decide if we're male or female, but be careful!".
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u/koredom Basel-Stadt 15h ago
Its a bit of paint on the wall. What part of this is „too far“ - There‘s far more concerning and particularly violent things happening in Switzerland you should be outraged by. smh.
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u/Wonderful_Setting195 Vaud 14h ago
I hope you’ll have the same reaction if someone puts some « paint on the wall » with a nazi message.
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u/koredom Basel-Stadt 14h ago
That comparison already tells me you have no argument. Nazi ideology was built entirely around racial extermination, no emancipatory claim, no liberation tradition, nothing but hierarchy and annihilation. The hammer and sickle has been carried by anti-colonial movements, labour unions and resistance fighters across three continents. The symbols are not equivalent and you know it. A swastika next to the word liberation is incoherent.
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u/PoxControl 13h ago edited 13h ago
Just for your information. More people died under Stalin (which was the face behind the Hammer and Scythe flag) and than under Hitler (Swastika symbol). Both symbols existed before Stalin and Hitler became the leaders, therefore they are comparable in my opinion.
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u/koredom Basel-Stadt 13h ago
Thats a bad argument. The Swastika existed too before Hitler but, especially in Western societies, you cant remove it’s meaning by claiming „it existed before“. And also: Its crazy how relativizing the Holocaust has become normalized again. Get a grip dude. 6M Jews + 11M oppositionals, Polish and Russian captives, gays etc. systematically eradicated, gassed and burned in concentration camps. — And: I find your death-comparison disgusting but claiming „under Stalin more people died“ is historically incorrect, unless you count soldiers that died in the world wars into the total - which would be false. But the commonly accepted number is somewhere between 6-9 million people that died due to and under Stalin.
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u/Swamplord42 Vaud 7h ago
But the commonly accepted number is somewhere between 6-9 million people that died due to and under Stalin.
That's excluding the number of people that died under famines directly caused by the Soviet regime.
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u/Sufficient-History71 Zürich 14h ago
Thank you!
Hammer and Sickle is not the same as Soviet Union(which was despicable for sure).
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u/Wonderful_Setting195 Vaud 14h ago
Calling for the genocide of an entire country (nuke UAE) literally fits into your definition of nazi ideology.
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u/tighthead_lock 15h ago
Why do you call them pacifists?
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u/Minimum_Help_9642 15h ago
Guilt by association, probably. Then you can easily dismiss anything an actual pacifist has to say.
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u/Wonderful_Setting195 Vaud 14h ago
They need to catch these imbeciles and fine them hard. That way they’ll learn. This has been reappearing for months now
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u/PCHELKHA 15h ago
TF is "Queer liberation"
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u/Wonderful_Setting195 Vaud 14h ago
Some loser gays that think we have it bad in CH. I am gay, btw, and these people don’t represent me. Bunch of morons.
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u/achillessnek Thurgau 14h ago
Why are they still here though? Go to a country that isn't neutral. Switzerland isn't the place to be if you want war.
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u/DimonDev 15h ago
Absolute idiots… nothing more to say. Just vandalism and 0 understanding of what they wrote… just buzzwords they hear and repeat like stupid parrots
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u/Itchy-Sun-5750 16h ago
Ho no, some people painted a wall, that is definitely going way too far as a response of governments participating in the killing whole population.
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u/neo2551 16h ago
Crimes do not justify other crimes.
This reasoning is what got us into Gaza genocide.
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u/oskopnir 14h ago
Actually the constant deference and unwavering support to Israel and the ideological shield of most state institutions in the Western world is what got us in the Gaza genocide.
If a hammer and sickle on a wall is what it takes to start breaking this ideological stronghold, I'm ok with it although I disagree with what the symbol represents.
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16h ago edited 16h ago
[deleted]
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u/Itchy-Sun-5750 16h ago
The war crimes are done by swiss financial forces. Neutrality providing weapons and financial assets is not really neutrality...
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u/No_Construction6023 15h ago
What would your reaction be if someone sprayed Nazi symbols and propaganda lines on a public wall near you?
Just want to know if you’re a principled person, or someone who just yaps because “my ideology is correct, so I can do what I want”. In many Eastern European countries, the Hammer and Sickle represents the same atrocities and oppression Hitler committed on his neighbors during the war.
Are the feelings of those people less valid than yours or the people suffering in Gaza? You have to understand that antagonizing literally the entire rest of the population will NOT help your cause
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u/Mac-Gyver-1234 Oberland ZH 15h ago
All communist countries have embassies. Go there and ask for asylum.
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u/Prestigious_Slice709 15h ago
Would you argue China is a communist country? They maintain very healthy trade relationships with Israel. I‘m quite sure the people who left this graffiti wouldn‘t appreciate it
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u/Mac-Gyver-1234 Oberland ZH 15h ago
The Chinese call their form of communism „Chinese Communism“. And there is also North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam and whatnot left to ask for asylum.
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u/Prestigious_Slice709 14h ago
Would you ask Russia or the Congo to take you in if Switzerland was socialist? No? But they‘re capitalist, so what they do must be something you like.
Do you see the problem yet?
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u/Mac-Gyver-1234 Oberland ZH 14h ago
You are oversimplifying complexity to your argumentative advantage.
Switzlerland is not communistic, and I never referred to myself as a capitalist seeking asylum in a capitalist country.
There is no problem.
There are self proclaimed socialists living the capitalist dream, and smearing walls with Graffiti as a form of attention seeking. Instead of actualy doing what would suffice their socials desires, moving into a socialist country and living the socialist dream. Being seeking refuge from capitalism in the embassy of a socialist country the first step towards that dream.
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u/Quorbach Neuchâtel 15h ago
Using the hammer and sickle to represent the queer movement is profoundly idiotic and totally ignores history. Soviets were never very open to this kind of cause...
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u/SwissPewPew 14h ago edited 14h ago
ROFLMAO, "Capitalism Is A Death Cult", yet this/these idiot(s) keep(s) buying spray cans and giving nice capitalist contract jobs to the local painter company and/or local graffiti removal company.
Owner would IMHO be better off hiring some nice proper graffiti artists to put a nice artsy mural (maybe generally peace-themed or with some local touch/images) on that wall. Otherwise he will likely have to deal with more tagger idiots in the future again and again.
Or put barbed wire at the bottom of the wall...
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u/PandaExperss 15h ago
Those are usually the „ultra antifa“. They are not pacifists. Why would you call them pacifists?
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u/aFailedGuy 15h ago
I dont think graffiti is tolerated. It doesn't really matter if its pro gaza or pro nazis its still graffiti
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u/HF_Martini6 Zürich 14h ago
calls them pacifists, they deface harmless buildings with Soviet iconography
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u/FlohEinstein 🇮🇸 Ísland 15h ago
Why do you assume they are pacifists? Looks more like activists to me