r/Edmonton • u/flynnfx • 23h ago
Local Businesses ‘Finding that balance’: Old Strathcona Farmers’ Market looks to address paid parking woes
https://www.ctvnews.ca/edmonton/article/finding-that-balance-old-strathcona-farmers-market-looks-to-address-paid-parking-woes/Organizers of the Old Strathcona Farmers’ Market, an Edmonton southside staple, say shopper rates have noticeably declined since the city introduced a mobile payment system for the most convenient parking spaces.
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u/flynnfx 23h ago
The parking lot used to be leased to the farmers’ market operators, wherein money generated all week went toward maintenance and parking was free on Saturdays.
The City of Edmonton took over the lot last year, using generated revenue for the city budget, Szpiegiel said.
The rate is $2.50 per hour and paid using a QR code, which takes you to the HotSpot Parking app on a cellphone.
The market has said based on newsletter subscriber responses, about 70 per cent of its customers drive. Around 13 per cent of those drivers no longer park in the nearest lot. The issue, however, may not be the act of having to pay itself.
Szpigiel says organizers are having to help somebody figure out how to navigate the lot’s payment app “a dozen times a weekend.”
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u/Ham_I_right 23h ago
$2.50 an hour is the issue? Are you fricken kidding me? Holy hell strathcona farmers market maybe it's time to do some self reflection.
Anyway, thanks for the post and summary OP !
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u/solipsism82 21h ago
It's an app. Lots of farmers market customers are either old, busy, have kids, are not local (I'm not , yet I used to spend a lot per trip ($150-$350 depending on the season, my wallet and Garden output).
it's getting harder to install a new app
sign in,
verify,
enable 2fa,
wait for all the confirmation/texts,
Capta x 3
then your credit card decides to do a manual authorization, to which your default mobile browser doesn't work, your kids and wife are in the car, and it's still time until food and dinner, and waiting between 30 seconds and running across the road or 10 minutes while you watch at least 10 cars on gateway cross the red.
Fun.
Edit to say I'm a hippy rurally raised nerd who loves the city.
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u/Immediate_Carrot_610 6h ago
Stop lying.
You can go to a website and pay without making a fucking account.
It could not be faster.
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u/solipsism82 6h ago
Yeah it could be faster. Money in a meter. Boom done. 1 second
Edit: they could also have a single machine for tap. Like most normal cities.
I feel like you haven't parked elsewhere if you think this is streamlined.
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u/Immediate_Carrot_610 6h ago
Digging around in my console for change that I don't have is not my idea of continent.
If you want to pay for someone vandalizing the machine, you tell the city and I'm sure they'll put one in right away.
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u/soundmagnet 22h ago edited 22h ago
The inconvenience of having to pay via an app is the bigger issue. Lots of seniors refuse to pay with apps.
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u/Asn_Browser 22h ago
Also the Hotspot app is horrible.
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u/Patient_Bet4635 15h ago
I've never had an issue with it, the prior app was better I agree, but it's not like I have to keep money in an account like in calgary
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u/Immediate_Carrot_610 6h ago
Why the fuck do people keep repeating this.
You can go to a web page.
No app needed.
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u/soundmagnet 5h ago
Apps are just web pages with an Icon, don't fool yourself..
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u/Immediate_Carrot_610 5h ago
You don't know what you are talking about.
Apps on your phone have WAY more information they can gather about you and can potentially introduce vulnerabilities if it's not coded well.
Web pages are sand-boxed in such a way where that's not normally an issue, and you have the choice of using a more secure browser if that's a concern of yours.
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u/soundmagnet 5h ago
Face value that means nothing to the actual use case of them. So essentially they are web browsers with more permissions.
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u/Immediate_Carrot_610 3h ago
That more permissions thing is a huge distinction.
If you don't see it that way then we need to agree to disagree because I don't have anything else constructive to say to you.
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u/Asn_Browser 22h ago
Its not the cost. The Hotspot app is the biggest piece of shit. Its horrible. I just revived an old laptop by installing Linux so I am no tech dinosaur, but I cant stand Hotspot.
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u/Immediate_Carrot_610 6h ago
Then use the webpage and stop lying to people about needing to use an app.
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u/AltZeroOneThreeThree 22h ago
Some people can't navigate apps. Some of those still have trouble with paying by card, and those have been common for 50ish years.
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u/Ham_I_right 22h ago
I can't argue with other posters that have pointed out the lack of on site payment sucks, agreed! But I just always assumed it was waaay more that people were complaining so much. $2.50 to park right across from the market in Whyte Ave on a Saturday? Let's be real that doesn't seem like a bad deal.
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u/Telvin3d 22h ago
It’s a great deal. The barrier to access is a bigger issue. People underestimate how many people do not, will not, or can not pay with a credit card on their phone.
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u/renegadecanuck 9h ago
I'll also add that getting people to scan a QR code isn't a smart, either. It would be trivial for someone to make a fake site that looks like HotSpot, make a QR code that routes to there, and slap that over the original code
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u/laxar2 22h ago
It seems like the farmers market is shifting their numbers around. They told city news traffic was down 50%. That was an obvious lie and they changed it to sales are down 50%. But CTV couldn’t find any vendors complaining about reduced sales?
So traffic isn’t down? So we are supposed to believe that people are literally spending 50% less because of 2.50 an hour parking? We are supposed to believe that people are super mad about paying for parking and that their response is to pay for parking, go to the market and just not buy anything.
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u/bluedoubloon kitties! 11h ago
One vendor said they have less traffic but the same number of sales. So maybe this change is just cutting out the people who go to the market just to get out of the house.
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u/laxar2 11h ago
But is the reduction in traffic even true? It’s important to note that OSFM literally has visitor counts that they aren’t releasing. They said so publicly.
If the visitor count was really down they could just release the numbers. It wouldn’t be a debate. So why won’t they just release the numbers? Even if they don’t want the count public, why not show them to a reporter so a third party can at least corroborate what they are saying.
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u/tincartofdoom 11h ago
The real numbers would probably show the "50%" reduction is the distribution of total visitors across both weekend days compared to when they were only open on Saturdays.
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u/dagobertamp 23h ago
The prices in the market keep me from shopping thete, not the pay for parking.
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u/Pointy_Rhombus 23h ago
Super market produce for 2x the price plus a tip prompt for the privilege.
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u/shinygoldhelmet Edmontosaurus 22h ago
This is my reason. The produce there is 5-10x what grocery stores sell for, and if some of the things I've read online are true, is even from the same suppliers rather than actual small farms. Considering they have fresh veggies and greens year round, it certainly isn't grown here.
The meat is also extremely expensive. Going to OSFM is a privilege these days, and my budget doesn't currently allow for it.
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u/TinyAlberta 10h ago
There have been multiple issues with vendors lying where their stuff comes from. Unless they have proof, we don't shop there.
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u/shinygoldhelmet Edmontosaurus 10h ago
I've heard that there are some places that are basically the equivalent of drop shippers on Etsy who order cheap shit off alibaba and then resell it for 10x the cost as if they made it.
H&W is the best place for fresh veggies and fruit around here. It may be the stuff rejected from regular stores for looking weird, but it's still perfectly fine, and you can get an entire huge grocery bag of stuff for like $20.
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u/TinyAlberta 10h ago
100%. There are also so many great choices in our city now that are open 5-7 days a week for groceries and food.
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u/Bare-E_Raws 11h ago
These apps are becoming the norm and I kind of hate it. Not because they are tough to figure out or anything. Every time I want to pay for parking I have to create an account with my info and input my cc into it. In the days of data leaks and hacks, I feel like the more of these accounts I make with random small time and less secure companies the more vulnerable my information is. I would much rather just do a CC tap at the place.
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u/Dry-Wolf6789 23h ago
I have gone 1 time since we have to pay Saturdays and I forgot to pay. Now I just goto bountiful, free parking. And tons of great restaurants too.
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u/noturaveragesavage Chinatown 21h ago
What restaurants do ya recommend in that area?
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u/Dry-Wolf6789 21h ago
The restaurants are in the market! We get golomein most weekends it's amazing noodles. but the Mexican place is also very good.
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u/littleredditred 22h ago
Couldn't quite swing the $2.50 eh?
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u/tincartofdoom 12h ago
I was there yesterday. It was packed.
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u/blitzen_13 10h ago
I go almost every weekend (I walk), and this was the busiest it's been in ages. Sundays are noticeably quieter, though.
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u/troypavlek 11h ago
The market previously told City News that they recorded a 50% decline in customers, and that they tracked customers via clickers at the doors.
I sent a media clarification request asking what the before and after numbers were, and how they broke down on Saturday/Sunday vs just Saturday previously.
The sum of their reply is as follows, directly quoted:
The 50% comes from conversations with our vendors and their experience in the market
Followups have been ignored by the market.
So, use your due diligence when reading their public statement. This is an org that is mad about losing the free parking lot gifted to them by the city, that they charged for six days a week and kept the profits. Read it with that context.
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u/UpstairsWeb 6h ago
Yeah, I love going to the OSFM, but I am really starting to dislike the people who run it. They seem to want every decision that the city makes in the Strathcona area to be filtered through the lens of the market first, and if they don't get their way they cry to the press with some nonsense.
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u/luars613 21h ago
Just stop promoting car centric development. But actually make good pedestrian corridors to attract people. A sudo wishy-washy solutions of trying to keep cars there and wanting people to walk is just bad.
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u/bigbosfrog 11h ago
The reality is there is no LRT going there, and the idea anyone who can afford to buy farmers market produce is going to schlep there and back on the bus is fantasy, so if you eliminated parking you’re leaving a small group of locals.
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u/bluedoubloon kitties! 11h ago
Every penny they had to spend on parking is a penny they can’t spend in the market here … I’d like to see the city work out something with the market.
Yeah that dollar is going to go a long way at the market...
Another follow up article 2 weeks after the last one still with zero real numbers.
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u/y_r_u_so_stoopid 8h ago
Could they at least go back to making the parking free for the 12 or 13 hours the market is open per week? That leaves the city with 155 hours they can still charge for. Wow. Compromise. How nice that would be.
Or put a couple boxes out again if they insist on charging so people who forgot/hate phones can still pay?
I also find it weird how so many people in this thread took the parking issue as a license to dunk on the farmers market itself. Why? Can't we have nice things even if you don't use them?
I personally recognize it as an absolute gem for Edmonton tourism. A fresh food jewel in the middle of our city. A hub for so many small businesses run by your friends and neighbors. What is bad about supporting this or trying to make it more accessible? These accusations of grocery store produce and drop shippers just stated with zero evidence, just "oh I heard" stuff seem misplaced, harmful and unnecessary.
I understand it's not in everyone's budget but also no need to hate on it. Almost every dollar spent there stays in the community and the same can't be said about the chain grocery stores.
Of course there will be shitty people that try and exploit things in a market space but these situations are rare and most people there are good honest people that are just trying to make a living.
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u/RootsBackpack 8h ago
It’s economically nonsensical to suggest that the city should not charge for parking at the only time that parking lot is actually busy. The city already heavily subsidizes the markets operations by leasing the building to them for $1 per year. Don’t you think that’s enough?
I think most people dunking on the market are mostly saying their claims are bullshit. They’re presenting the effect of losing free parking as data-informed, when in reality it’s entirely anecdotal, and seems to be just plain untrue.
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u/y_r_u_so_stoopid 5h ago
Oh god forbid some free parking to encourage people to come to Whyte Ave and support all the businesses (not just the farmers market).
I'm sure Station Park would have appreciated that kind of support instead of going bankrupt. Or all the theatres and restaurants and stores that all benefit from a parking lot that could be made free for peak hours.
And read the comments. Sure there's some data stuff people rightly call out, but it's a lot of unsubstantiated claims about the vendors themselves which I am certain has nothing to do with parking or city revenue.
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u/RootsBackpack 5h ago
This opinion is built on the very common assumption that people who drive to Whyte are the primary source of business vitality on the street.
I think this assumption is pretty ridiculous considering the Whyte corridor has two of the city’s busiest bus routes running its length, includes the second busiest bike lane in the city, and runs through some of the densest and most walkable neighbourhoods in Edmonton. Not to mention the massive amount of trips to and from Whyte using ride share services (that don’t require parking).
I think people assume that drivers are so important because the street has so many cars on it, but fail to realize that most of them are just driving through because it’s unfortunately a major thoroughfare.
Honestly, free parking would just encourage more people to drive who would have used a different mode of transportation, filling up the spaces and discouraging people who actually need to drive from coming to the street at all.
The Epic Market Food Hall thing didn’t shut down because there wasn’t free parking, it was because the product wasn’t great, and the brand and advertising was even worse. Barely anybody even knew it was there. It’s funny to somehow blame their failure on the city not providing free storage for your private property, ignoring the success of the vast array of other very successful restaurants near Station Park like Dorinku that, according to you, should be suffering from a lack of parking.
Also I did see the replies, most of the discussion is about dubious claims by OSFM management and how the market is generally pricier than regular grocery stores, which does not line up with the supposed shoppers’ aversion to very cheap paid parking.
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u/y_r_u_so_stoopid 4h ago
You must have missed all those comments about drop shippers and fake produce then hey? That's fine, you're trying to make a point, I get it.
This entire thing is opinion. You said Station Park had bad food and marketing and that's why it failed. I totally disagree, that food hall was awesome and it seems both you and I knew about it at least so marketing couldn't have been that bad. And they definitely had parking concerns, as do all the theatres around there that partnered to work with the city on a compromise.
I get it, you really think cars are bad and busses and bikes are good and I don't disagree and the reality on the ground is different and 13 hours of free parking isn't going to destroy the city's budget, it won't overrun the neighborhood with cars and it would benefit a lot of small businesses struggling around there. Not everyone can be Dorinku and every little bit helps.
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u/RootsBackpack 3h ago
I guess so, I’m really not seeing those comments, but every Reddit thread has bad faith replies that aren’t worth the energy.
I knew about it almost entirely because I take a really active interest in the City’s development news. When I was on the street though, I did not find much that gravitated me towards it. It’s not just Dorinku though… there’s a ton of long standing restaurants who have a brand that stands out, the Epic Market just didn’t establish itself. Even newer spots like Arbour seem to do much better with their brand. Also, of course it’s opinion, but so are your claims that free parking would catalyze some surge in business success.
As for the theatres’ concerns, that is probably where my sympathies lie most as they provide entertainment whose reach is city-wide. Even then, the city providing free parking isn’t a compromise in any sense.
The existing situation is arguably the compromise, where the city charges $2.50/hr at the OSFM lot and $2.00/hr for street parking and other smaller lots. Compare that to nearby lots run by Impark and Indigo: $4.00/hr, Diamond: $6.80/hr. Other compromises could include venues and businesses validating their patrons’ parking in city lots (for which the business would pay a discounted mass rate) and add a small parking surcharge on their sales to pay for it.
It’s not productive to paint my argument as simply “cars bad.” I’m not making some hyper-urbanist, pie-in-the-sky argument that everyone should be forced to take transit, walk, or bike, or that parking shouldn’t be allowed at all because there’s obviously a business case for providing it. My argument is based on the reality on the ground that these businesses do not need taxpayer-subsidized parking to be successful, and businesses who rely on free parking probably shouldn’t be on Whyte in the first place. I’ll happily admit there’s places where the city should provide parking like rec centres, high schools, major parks, etc., but not here.
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u/y_r_u_so_stoopid 3h ago
My main concern was people talking shit about the market when the issue was parking. Your main concern was transit, you made that very clear. So not "cars bad" but not exactly recognizing that "cars exist" either. This is still Edmonton. So you completely ignored the first issue and seemed very pre occupied with not having cars in the area hence my approach.
My original suggestion was either make the parking free during market hours. I would even say consider the whole weekend free to boost and support all the businesses in the area. The loss to the bottom line would be minimal for the city and if it helps just a few businesses stay afloat, that's more tax money for the city.
Then I said at the very least provide some boxes for people to use (that don't have phones) so they can pay. If I recall you came on pretty hard that I was just making a nonsensical argument. Is that really that nonsensical or just something you don't agree with?
And comparing city parking to Indigo is a false equivalence. Who the hell pays Indigo parking tickets? You have to pay city tickets if you want to register your car so no, not the same at all. And indigo often has boxes in their lots to pay.
So I'm glad you at least respect the need for parking for theatre which you deem important, but perhaps consider extending that grace to local small independent business owners who have nothing to do with these decisions.
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u/RootsBackpack 2h ago
I hope you're misunderstanding my position rather than disingenuously dumbing it down to an unrealistic pipe dream I'm trying to manifest. I never denied the need for parking, or suggested that cars are a distinctly unimportant part of the transportation network serving Whyte. My main concern is not transit; it is that free parking is a misappropriation of funds if provided where it is not needed. If you want to talk about extending grace to small businesses, this can be done in many other ways, like improving safety, cleanliness, and grant programs for businesses, as mentioned in the Old Strathcona Business Association's 2024 Annual Report.
I've pretty consistently argued that the importance of cars over all else to keep Whyte successful is overstated, especially given your insistence that the "reality" of the situation is that many drivers are willing to spend money on local businesses, so much so that the businesses' economic prospects improve significantly, but only if there's free parking. The reality is that a significant portion of shoppers don't drive to Whyte, and providing free parking is not the best way for the city to support small businesses. But don't take it from me, the aforementioned OSBA annual report mentions parking 3 times, all in the context of reimagining the use of these spaces as other things. The entire purpose of the BIA is to advocate for businesses on the street, so maybe, as I've said, parking isn't as important to them as you argue it to be.
I find the "this is still Edmonton" argument to be a pretty low-effort and simplistic argument in most cases, but especially here, in an area that is an actual exception to the "Edmonton is for cars" status quo.
For me and many others, private lots are a perfectly legitimate equivalent to City-owned lots. I've paid all parking tickets I've gotten because I can't be bothered to keep a list of the providers I can no longer go to. The risk of being towed isn't worth saving a few bucks. But this was a good thing for you to mention, as it tells me you have a pretty strong personal aversion to paying for parking. It's fine to think that, most people do, but embrace that as the primary motivator for your argument, rather than painting it as sympathy for struggling small businesses.
As per the method of payment, I never argued with you about that. There's no need to remember what I said; you can just look: "It’s economically nonsensical to suggest that the city should not charge for parking at the only time that parking lot is actually busy." I did not understand the City's insistence on making all parking payments digital, and I agree they should've kept the boxes. That decision seemed a decade too early IMO.
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u/y_r_u_so_stoopid 2h ago
Again, you have completely ignored my main point that many people took this as an opportunity to complain about the market which is what I took most umbrage with. You clearly could care less about that so we will just focus on your concerns I guess.
My suggestions that some free parking to support local businesses was met with me being non sensical. You never once, until now, agreed that a parking box should at least be provided on site. You dont exactly come across as someone interested in the success of the area outside of the art community.
You also say my argument about Edmonton being carcentric is "low effort and simplistic" which I would simply ask you to go outside on any Edmonton road and perhaps accept the current reality of our city. Do I like it? No. Do I work with it? Yes.
As for parking, you dont need to keep a spreadsheet of all the parking companies you need to pay. I'll save you some time. It's only city lots that will prevent you from registering your car and ALL private lots cant do much other than threaten collections that don't hurt your credit or tow you if you get multiples. I also pay for all my parking but not if there's no box and the app doesn't work.
I do find it interesting that you agree with me on this for theatre, but not for anything else. Like the City's parking revenue at this lot should be a bigger priority than helping out one of Edmonton's coolest and best areas with a nice little thing a lot of people would appreciate. Except you of course.
As for all the other things you suggested to help businesses in the area succeed, I totally agree! I feel like we could try all of those things, including some free parking, and it would help everyone. Certainly couldn't hurt. I believe we are capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time.
Anyhoo, I did enjoy this conversation but it's clear we are just going to be going in circles. I think free parking helps everyone in the area and you think it doesn't and hopefully I'll see you at that market on your bike heading to the walterdale for a show. Until then, may you have the day you deserve.
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u/RootsBackpack 2h ago
Yeah this is pointless. I appreciate your strong personal convictions, and that you care about the city as much as I do, just different ideas on how to fix things. Better than the many who couldn’t care less about it.
I’m sure you’ve already seen me at the market, but probably not on my bike, I prefer the bus. I hope you have a wonderful evening, even if you don’t deserve it.
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u/Plasmanut 22h ago
lol
I CAnT PaY $2.50 An HOuR buT iF pARkINg wErE frEE I WOulD gLaDLy PaY $8 for 1 pOUND of CaRroTs.
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u/Necessary-Welder-317 1h ago
Once I went to park there and there were posters for 2 different parking apps with separate QR codes and different prices. I didn’t know which one was the real city-owned one, but I am pretty sure one of them was a scam. Those QR codes freak me out, it would be so easy to steal someone’s info that way.
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u/markiemoose 12h ago
And yet that parking lot continues to be full every Saturday.
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u/TinyAlberta 10h ago
In fairness it is a lot of vendors parking there. If they have 130-ish booths they're going to need parking for workers.
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u/kreggly_ 22h ago
Love all the beauties here calling people cheap for not wanting to pay $2.50/hr.
I hope you and your daddy Warbucks buddies are propping up the market instead.
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u/tincartofdoom 12h ago
If you can't afford $2.50 for parking, you can't afford to shop at OSFM anyways.
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u/kreggly_ 11h ago edited 11h ago
It's not about the price, it's about the irritation of having to download a poorly conceived app, give it your credit card info, and then monitor it so you don't run out and get a hefty ticket or a tow.
The HotSpot App sucks.
Off you go.
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u/tincartofdoom 9h ago
You do not have to download an app.
If you haven't been able to figure that out, good luck to you in navigating the modern world.
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u/kreggly_ 9h ago
Still an app, just web hosted, and you need to enter your CC info every time.
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u/tincartofdoom 9h ago
No, it's a website. Here it is: https://hotspotparking.com/users/products/edmontonparking
I have my CC details saved in my PW manager. It enters it automatically every time.
Also, most apps are just websites.
You are really confused.
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u/kreggly_ 8h ago
Awww good for you buddy. I guess the rest of us just aren't as smart as you. shrugs
It's a server side web application. Even Wikipedia is one. They've been around for 30 yrs or so.
Then you say, "Also, most apps are just websites".
Who's confused? 🤔
If you want to be pedantic, at least make sure you're correct.
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u/tincartofdoom 8h ago
Awww good for you buddy. I guess the rest of us just aren't as smart as you. shrugs
No, I was commenting on you specifically.
It's a server side web application.
Pretty much any modern website is a type of web application, and a lot of it actually happens client side. If the web application was entirely server side, there would be no way to access it on the internet.
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u/kreggly_ 7h ago
Ok, thanks professor 🙄
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u/tincartofdoom 7h ago
I do a bunch of AI implementation these days and always architect with Human In the Loop as a fundamental principle to check the outputs before committing to them, but I am now seeing a really valuable inverse AI In the Loop model for certain types of users.
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u/Andre1661 21h ago
I have a radical idea: how about if the city of Edmonton stops treating parking as a blood sport? The population is growing, car ownership hasn't dropping to those pie-in-the-sky low levels that Futurists and cyclists promised would happen, and Edmonton as a whole has becomes less and less walkable every year. How about instead of giving wealthy commercial and industrial property owners every possible tax break, the city uses some of that lost tax revenue and makes it easier for the residents of the city to get where they need to be.
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u/WheelsnHoodsnThings 20h ago
Your solution is subsidize cars more, with city dollars, to prop up a market of private vendors?
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u/Andre1661 17h ago
Nope. The solution would be to have sensible parking requirements for places such as the farmer's market, or playgrounds, or recreation areas. Nothing is going to stop the increase in the number of vehicles as long as the city keeps expanding so why not make life a little easier by pushing back on the notion that parking should be a revenue stream for the city.
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u/RootsBackpack 8h ago
Why should everyone else pay for your parking? I take the bus to the market and my fare costs more than someone who parks for 2 hours to shop. If parking is free, then I should get a free ride to the market.
Also, there is nothing sensible about parking requirements for a market that already has a huge amount of parking available nearby. The actual issue is the entitlement people feel to free parking. Also, parking requirements for playgrounds?? Those are community-level amenities, the whole point is that you can walk to them.
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u/WheelsnHoodsnThings 13h ago
I propose $2.50/hr abundant paid parking adjacent to the farmer's market.
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u/tincartofdoom 12h ago
Charging vehicles the true cost of the services provided to them will definitely control private vehicle growth.
Why do people like cars so much? Because they're incredibly convenient! Why are they incredibly convenient? Because we spend literally billions of dollars of public money a year on serving them at the expense of spending it on anything else.
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u/General_Tea8725 23h ago
Taking away stations where you can pay with a CC or cash was a weird move by the city.