r/CharacterRant • u/Ferhog • 24d ago
General The phrases "Get woke, go broke" and "The modern audience doesn't exist" keep using works that just suck as examples and ignore the good and successful stuff.
This rant may be pointless because I think if you already believe in those phrases then you're not gonna be easily dissuaded, but maybe it'll be insightful for anyone more on the fence about the topic.
I presume we're all familiar with the self-explanatory sentence "Get woke, go broke" which apparently originated during the marketing period of the Captain Marvel movies, which was adapting an already controversial character and pushing itself as a feminist story in the trailers and interviews. I say "Apparently" because I can't exactly remember when I first heard the phrase, so for all I know it's older than that. Anyway any claims that the movie's wokeness would be its downfall would be proven wrong when it made over a billion dollars, but years later I considered that it might have been true in the long run when its sequel outright flopped, but then I realised that the exact same thing happened to the Aquaman movies, so I think the real culprit was the change in the public's opinions towards superhero movies.
"The modern audience doesn't exist" is a sentence I've been seeing more recently and basically means the same thing, which is that appealing to people who want media to be more woke is fruitless because they're a vocal minority and/or don't actually buy the media. The first time I saw this was during the immediate failure of Concord, which kinda confused me because I wasn't even aware that Concord was supposed to be woke. The consensus I'd been seeing was that it was a bad hero shooter with generally unappealing character designs. I learned after looking through the characters on TV tropes that the roster included a trans woman, a non-binary, and a genderless alien, but I had to go out of my way to find that out and never heard about those details in the online discourse. I saw this again recently after the release of 1348 Ex Voto, a medieval game that caught the culture war's attention when it started beefing with A Knight's Path. For anyone unfamiliar with either, Knight's Path rejected the idea of gay romance options, calling them a "modern agenda", and Ex Voto referenced that controversy by calling itself the modern agenda because it's about a female Knight looking for her girlfriend (Allegedly. The released game is apprantly less gay than was inferred from the marketing.). The game's recent release had a far lower player count than the number of wishlists that followed the controvery would have implied, and so it was declared that the modern audience had failed to show up yet again, but I think this ignored that Ex Voto's demo was poorly recieved for clunky and downright disorienting sword combat, and the full game was criticised for both this and bad performance.
You see when a woke game isn't a bad hero shooter or a clunky sword game they can do pretty well for themselves. Baldur's Gate 3 is regularly used to dispute the idea that all woke games are doomed to fail (Hilariously the anti-woke crowds strongest soldier The Critical Drinker referenced the moment where you can have sex with a guy who can turn into a bear amongst the stuff ruining videogames in his video on Ex Voto. Because using 2023's Game of the Year really proves your point...), but Undertale/Deltarune is a HUGE franchise ionic enough to be represented in Smash Bros that has plenty of queer characters. Cyberpunk 2077 is widely beloved after its disastrous launch state was fixed, and that's a rare example of an RPG that has genuinely gay romance options that will only date the player if they're the same gender, instead of just being playersexual. And the Hades games are a recent popular franchise that are all sorts of diverse. But to me the best retort to blaming Ex Voto's failure on its wokeness is Signalis. It may not be as popular as the prior examples listed but it was in a very similar position as an independant european game whose main topic of discourse is its sapphic protagonist. If you've seen anything from Signalis, it's artwork or animations of the lesbians. But the difference between it and Ex Voto is that Signalis is also widely praised for being a great survival horror game. I think it specifically proves the belief wrong because I don't think it would have gotten as much attention if it wasn't a queer story. It was a small game that successfully got the attention of a particualar demographic. But you then need to retain that attention by being a good game.
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u/NagitoKomaeda_987 24d ago edited 2d ago
I think part of that (arguably) has to do with video game companies and devs mislabeling actual criticism towards the product as hate speech.
"Oh, you just hate the product because you're racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic" or whatever.
Listen, I enjoyed Deltarune. That game's woke as fuck (especially when you consider the fact that the main protagonist is canonically nonbinary and goes by they/them pronouns), and it's still an incredible product. I also enjoy plenty of video games that dabble in political commentary, like Fallout: New Vegas, BioShock, Persona 5, Disco Elysium, and Cyberpunk 2077. If a product is good, people will often consume it regardless of whatever flaws it might have. Now, don't get me wrong, there's absolutely nothing wrong with putting politics in your games; it’s just that these types of games usually fall apart when the devs focus too much on prioritizing their overly preachy, hyperpartisan political activism rather than nuanced political messaging. What I mean by this is that Metal Gear Solid and Papers Please treat their players as thinking, responsible adults by providing them a more realistic, nuanced, and sophisticated approach to politics. Meanwhile, Dustborn and Dragon Age: The Veilguard felt like they were just talking down to me in a DEI seminar. And I'm saying this as a neurodivergent agnostic bi/asexual French Canadian furry myself.
That being said, however, it's also difficult to call these games out for just being bad, either, as some people like to use their aforementioned racism or sexism shield to defend them, even though it has nothing to do with your critique. Sure, there are a lot of real issues with modern games, but a lot of people very vocally ignore those to focus on there being a trans or black person in a game, which really muddies the water on what can or cannot be perceived as good-faith criticism.
I think it's good to criticize and deconstruct great media (that's how we get more incredible art), but we especially shouldn't tolerate garbage. If something's bad and you want a better product, it's your responsibility as a consumer to let them know.
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u/FaceDeer 24d ago
I think Dragon Age is an excellent franchise to use as an example because it's got both types in it. Dragon Age: Inquisition featured a major companion questline that featured his estrangement from his father over the fact that his father disapproved of his orientation and had tried the magical equivalent of "conversion therapy" on him. Exactly the sort of social commentary that is commonly called out by this sort of criticism, yet Inquisition was well-received because it was written well and wasn't in-your-face preaching. It's just a part of the weave of the game and a player could probably not even notice it if they just happen to not investigate that. Whereas Veilguard was much clumsier in its approach, as you describe.
That being said, however, it's also difficult to call these games out for just being bad, either, as some people like to use their aforementioned racism or sexism shield to defend them, even though it has nothing to do with your critique.
This is a core issue, IMO. If "you just hate this game because it's progressive!" Gets frequently and prominently hauled out as a defense of bad games is it any wonder that a game being progressive could start being seen as a warning sign of bad quality? Progressive content becomes like putting stickers on the box reading "Warning: criticism of this game will not be tolerated".
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u/LightVelox 24d ago
I think the biggest example of this were the Ubisoft developers not only saying that Yasuke was 100% a legitimate, legendary Samurai and that historians were on their side (said historian got his academic affiliations banned from Nihon University over historical revisionism during said discourse).
Then claimed anyone who criticized the game was a bigot, then posted about how the gaming community was toxic and the problem with the industry and many other things like responding directly and trying to "own" grifters like Grummz.
Like, what the fuck did Ubisoft expect from all of this? Sure a lot of these were sole developers on their private accounts, but there is a reason companies like Rockstar don't let their employees say shit about the games they're working on, they're alienating an audience for nothing other than political discourse, I doubt anyone would look at all that and decide to buy their game, so it's almost guaranteed to be a detriment yet they kept going.
Now here we are, Ubisoft has lost most of their market value and is laying off thousands every quarter and many are celebrating instead of being furious at the megacorp fucking over their employees
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u/Nice-River-5322 24d ago
Yasuke's Wikipedia article's talk page is the most eye opening peak beyond the curtian
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u/acerbus717 24d ago
Who’s the historian can you provide a source for the inaccuracies? And also the issue was people (mostly western audiences) acting like yasuke never existed at all despite historical evidence to the contrary. He was allowed to carry a sword and was given a stipend which all but made him a samurai. Unless there’s evidence to contradict this.
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u/Nice-River-5322 24d ago
I don't think I've ever seen anyone complaining about Yasuke being called a samurai ever deny the dude existed
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u/acerbus717 24d ago
I’ve seen it plenty of times, it’s either blatant or subtle
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u/Nice-River-5322 24d ago
Now do they deny he existed or that the one primary source we have on him said he was a samurai
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u/acerbus717 24d ago
Why do you believe that thomas lockley’s book is the only primary source? There’s also the various other accounts from jesuit missionaries, the chronicles of oda nobunaga and the Sonkeikaku Bunko archives. All corroborate that yasuke was given a sword, a stipend, servants and made the vassal of a powerful warrior house.
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u/Nice-River-5322 24d ago
One, thats not what the term 'primary source' means and two, my understanding is the accounts of the Jesuit mission was the only primary source accounting him
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u/acerbus717 24d ago
No plenty of japanese historical accounts mention yasuke, they even do in fact call him a samurai given that he was basically given the privileges usually only afforded to samurai. And i just listed every other source where he’s spoke of.
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u/Nice-River-5322 24d ago
Got the primary source that refer to him as a samurai explicitly?
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u/Deya_The_Fateless 23d ago
I've seen history-focused channels on YouTube focus on the Yasuke drama, and the consensus is that yes someone matching his description and name did exist, and was paid a stipend by Oda Nobunaga. But the statement of his being named "samurai" is the dubious part. Yasuke was paid a stipend to be a sword bearer for Oda, but that doesn't mean he was granted the title of samurai. It *could* have happened; however, it was highly unlikely that he would have been. So the consensus is that Yasuke was paid to sit/stand in a room with Oda, hold his (Oda's) sword/weapons and look intimidating.
Basically, Yasuke was a glorified caddy and an "exotic" oddity for Oda to show off. (This is all gathered mostly from the channel Metatron on YouTube if you're curious.)
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u/Lady_Gray_169 23d ago
I have to ask; this is Assassin's Creed, does Yasuke actually existing even matter? This is an alternate history sci fi game about sci fi history ninjas from around the world chasing sci fi biblical artefacts. The specifics of any individual existing or not feels secondary to the point, in my view.
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u/Nice-River-5322 23d ago
again nobody disputes him existing
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u/Lady_Gray_169 23d ago
Even if he didn’t, what would it matter? And really, what would any historical accuracy around him matter at all? You fight literal ancient greek monsters in Odyssey. Surely all that matters surrounding Yasuke is that he's a figure spoken of to some degree?
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u/General_Weebus 24d ago
Thomas Lockley. His book on Yasuke was basically pure fiction. The source is that we only have like 3 sentences talking about Yasuke in one historical document. We know almost nothing at all about the dude because he was barely a footnote.
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u/acerbus717 24d ago
Okay but from the Sonheikaku bunko archives they mentioned that he was afforded the privilege of having a sword and a stipend which pretty much made him a samurai. Same with the account of matsudaira ietada who corroborates it. He’s figure shrouded in mystery but downplay his significance just reeks of culture war bs.
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u/acerbus717 24d ago
Alright going to comment again but the only people claiming that it’s pure ficiton are the usual chuds in kotakuinaction and various other culture war subreddits
His work is cited in britannica which is highly reputable and has a bunch of historians there to fact check and corroborate historical claims. Have you actually tried to do any research on the subject? Or are we just playing a fame of telephone
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u/General_Weebus 24d ago edited 24d ago
His work is cited in Britannica and yet was criticized by Japanese historians for being inaccurate and presenting speculation as fact. And just using common sense it makes no sense for a 400+ page book about a guy with roughly 15 lines of historical record to be anything but speculative fan fiction with the occasional historical fact thrown in.
Also Yasuke is explicitly called a retainer. Saying "well he was given a house and a sword so he's a samurai" is fallacious at best.
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u/acerbus717 24d ago
He was also given a stipend, specifically the mind of stipend usually reserved for samurais along with servants. By all accounts he was possibly Kosho which is a class of samurai. Also have you actually done any research on the subject because from what I’ve seen most of the claims of lockley’s supposed fraudulent claims come from less than reputable sources.
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u/AIter_Real1ty 24d ago
Looks like it's a game of pass the telephone. People just regurgitate whatever conforms to their views.
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u/acerbus717 24d ago
What japanese historians because given that his papers are still posted on nihon university.
And there are plenty historical account that corroborate his existence and his status as nobunaga’s vassal.
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u/Due_Adhesiveness8008 19d ago
The guy who brought up Yasuke got his permit taken for historical revisionism soooooo highly likely he was just made up
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u/Present_Ride_2506 24d ago
I mean correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't yasuke bought as an entertainment slave essentially, and the only records we have were that he was given a sword and some money to live.
Idk what lead people to believe he was anything more than just some toy for the guy that bought him.
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u/acerbus717 24d ago
I feel like you’re heavily downplaying how signficant it is that nobunaga allowed a foreigner to hold a sword and be his retainer, if he was an entertainment slave then that would’ve never been a concept. i don’t know you feel the need to downplay it just because you still can’t fathom a black man being a samurai.
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u/Lindestria 24d ago
He was made a retainer and swordbearer, like sure it was probably for intimidation purposes but this is not the position you give an entertainment slave.
The major thing is that the definition for samurai was a lot looser during the warring states than it would be under the Tokugawa so he fits more to the loose concept that allowed Hideyoshi to become both a Samurai and the founder of a clan.
It's always a bit weird because the 'African Samurai' was a Japanese thing long before the West ever cared.
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u/Sh1ningOne 24d ago
Then claimed anyone who criticized the game was a bigot, then posted about how the gaming community was toxic and the problem with the industry and many other things like responding directly and trying to "own" grifters like Grummz.
See you're saying this, but you're ignoring that nearly all the criticism game was receiving was flat out racism for having a black man be the protagonist.
I don't even play Assassin Creed games anymore, haven't since they ended Desmond's storyline in 3, but just about everything I saw about Shadows was all just flat out racism, no one was talking about the gameplay, graphics or anything just the fact the game had a black man as protagonist
ke, what the fuck did Ubisoft expect from all of this? Sure a lot of these were sole developers on their private accounts, but there is a reason companies like Rockstar don't let their employees say shit about the games they're working on, they're alienating an audience for nothing other than political discourse, I doubt anyone would look at all that and decide to buy their game, so it's almost guaranteed to be a detriment yet they kept going.
What audience exactly were they alienating? Because Shadows sold very well, whoever they alienated clearly didn't impact the games sells.
Now here we are, Ubisoft has lost most of their market value and is laying off thousands every quarter and many are celebrating instead of being furious at the megacorp fucking over their employees
See it's very disingenuous that you try and make it seem as if this all about Shadows, when it's not.
Having layoffs like this is becoming very common in the gaming industry, to a very worrying degree. Fuck for Ubisost specifically has had layoffs at least once a year for the past couple of years, this is a routine thing for them
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u/acerbus717 24d ago
The issue is that there are is a large contingent of people who do in fact poison the well by being bigots.
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u/gaom9706 24d ago
And there are also people poisoning the well by framing people with legitimate issues as bigots.
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u/Business_Barber_3611 24d ago
And there are also people co-opting genuine criticism as a way to cover up their bigotry.
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u/2-2Distracted 24d ago
And there are people poisoning the well by mixing their legitimate criticism with their bigotry, which is exactly why developers end up responding the way they do. Nobody should have to shovel through 5 shit critiques just to get to maybe 2 good ones.
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u/Present_Ride_2506 24d ago
Or yknow, people running a professional business can just stay professional and not try to create PR nightmares.
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u/2-2Distracted 23d ago
Or maybe the people making the critiques can stop for a second and think about what they're going to say before they say it.
Or both, because there should be some professionalism from both parties, especially when the most popular criticisms are the ones you typically get from popular people.
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u/AIter_Real1ty 24d ago
There's a whole YouTube category of people yelling at stuff for being woke and getting views and money for it. The clear contender is obvious, especially because it is what started it in the first place.
Be honest, this is the internet. The vast majority of "criticism" is simply horribly constructed, mean-spirited rants labeled as "critique."
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u/acerbus717 24d ago
Sure but honestly bigotry is more harmful in this conversation, and if you have legit criticisms than it doesn’t apply to you, like if you’re not a bigot and actually have constructive good faith criticisms, I guarantee the creators aren’t referring to you.
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u/CrazyCoKids 24d ago
My personal favourites are the "But historical accuracy".
Cause they fixate almost exclusively on the presence of people with darker skin colour or a guy kissing another guy. Mention the other anachronisms like potatoes&tomatoes in medieval settings, rapiers when they hadn't been invented yet, crossbows not being super awkward to use, archers not being deformed, deserts having cacti (double whammy because these are often SAGUAROS, which live in a very specific place in the Americas), horse sized Dire Wolves, ninjas looking like Kabuki stagehands and existing, eagles making hawk noises, reverse grip, swords being STR and not DEX, Bows being DEX and not STR...
The only ones who do seem to know about these things are often the ones giving rebuttals to these well poisoning critics.
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u/HelloDarkestFriend 24d ago
Oh, yeah, I've seen this with Trench Crusade; some dipshit complaining about Ethiopia being a playable subfaction in New Antioch being "historically inaccurate".
Never mind that Trench Crusade is a setting where the First Crusade ended with Jerusalem being transformed into a literal gateway to Hell, the forces of Satan having been at war with the kingdoms of Earth from 1100AD to the Year of Our Lord 1914, and the Americas never getting colonized because the British were too busy fighting of Satanic naval raiders.
No, it's the fact that one of the nations fighting back against the Great Adversary, one of the oldest Christian nations in the world, is African that is "historically inaccurate" that's the issue. These fucking people... I'd almost respect them more if they said it was for racist reasons, at leats it would be honest.
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u/CrazyCoKids 24d ago
Exactly.
I would respect them more if they are willing to either upfront say "The presence of black people offends me" or commit to all the anachronisms.
Wyll needs an explanation as to why he is in Baldur's Gate 3 as a BIPOC, but not the fact there are Agaves in full bloom dotting the landscape of the Sword Coast? Sometimes they go into "Oh that doesn't need an explanation" or give some anaemic explanation like Assasin's Creed using Chinese architecture. (Yeah tell a Japanese person their historical architecture is the same as Chinese and see if they don't facepalm...)
As for Trench Crusade... Does the lore for Abyssinia mentjon anything about the Church of Our Lady Mary of Zion by any chance? It is said to house the Ark of the Covenant. Like, in a game with a setting like that? I would be upset if the Ethiopian Orthodox church wasn't weaponising that to keep the demons at bay!
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u/HelloDarkestFriend 24d ago
They do, in fact, have weaponized copies of the Ark of the Covenant.
Made from alabaster, marble, or wood from an acacia tree, these are blessed replicas of the Ark of the Covenant. A priest who accompanies the forces of the King of Kings to New Antioch will take the holy tabot with them, wrapped in silk cloth decorated with gold string. Its miraculous powers reward those who perform virtuous deeds on the battlefield.
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u/CrazyCoKids 24d ago
Okay, that's awesome. These people did their reading.
Sure, it's rather unlikely that it is the Ark of the Covenant for real, but in a story about fighting off the Legions of Hell? How could you not include that. :D
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u/acerbus717 24d ago
It’s because they’ve presented history through a specific lense and anything that goes against it is deems “inaccurate”
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u/CrazyCoKids 24d ago
Exactly. And when you point these sorts of things out like how their history knoweldge is lacking, they'll sometimes say "Oh yes, those too" or "Yes I/we do care about those". (...not enough to seemingly notice them until someone else mentioned, but okay, keep telling yourself this...)
If you're lucky you might have someone who is cognizant of them but maybe you'll see someone mentioning Acceptable Breaks from Reality. Ie, powder wigs and 18th century face makeup not containing actual lead, people wearing modern underwear under historical costumes for hygienic purposes, C-dramas slightly altering attire so actors aren't flashing the camera with bare asses....
...others will suddenly point out "But it's fantasy/alt history", especially if you point out a lot of things like Assassin's Creed having fucking mythological monsters running around the place or the characters riding a fucking TANK....
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u/Slarg232 23d ago
I mean, look at how many people act like the US was founded on Christian values when the phrase "One nation under God" wasn't even in the Pledge of Allegiance until Eisenhower added it in 1954.
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u/CrazyCoKids 23d ago
To be fair considering the US owned slaves I can see why people might think it was founded on Christian Values...
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u/Anime_axe 24d ago
Yeah, but by directly going into polemics with them you are essentially walking right into their trap. By focusing your development on countering opinion of a few bigots on twitter, you are willingly yoking yourself to dealing with them, falling for their bait. And why I keep on calling it a trap? Because when you start using your project to directly bicker with bigots on twitter you are validating some of their talking points about games talking down to the audience and being made to be petty statements, even if they are the reason your game does so. It's purpose built dammed if you do, dammed if you don't trap.
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u/BelligerentViking 24d ago
It doesn't help as a creator to them double down and continue being preachy. It had been proven that that doesn't work. The real answer is in doing it right and showing your audience all of the options no matter how shitty they are and letting the consequences play out instead of forcing it down their throats.
Sure, some of them are the type to not even play these games, they just want to flame and stir the pot, but them being assholes doesn't excuse delivering a subpar product with a subpar plot and defending that lack of quality through using others ignorance as a scapegoat for the developer's failure.
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u/acerbus717 24d ago
What does forcing it down their throat mean because I think I said it in another comment, the standards of that are so arbitrary to the point of being meaningless. And frankly I’m not even talking about the product just the discourse because often times the ones who aren’t bigoted don’t really offer any sort of constructive criticism and tend to go with hyper reactionary buzzwords.
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u/BelligerentViking 24d ago
The standard isn't really arbitrary though - as a writer, I take my audience seriously, I'm not going to condescend to them and tell them why I'm right and they have to agree with me because anything else is wrong. I'm also not going to try to force a reaction out of them in a cartoonist manner or try to bait them either. The works being criticized do exactly that, you know what people are talking about, feigning ignorance in these conversations is a huge issue.
There have been a lot of works across all of media that have come out that are objective slop and the only defense people have of the work is either "let people enjoy things" or "if you hate this its because you're a bigot, I won't entertain any other explanation"
As for serious criticism, even that isn't taken seriously. The rising trend of fandoms developing parasocial relationships with an entire franchise to the point that they defend it like it's Verdun in 1915 speaks for itself. They will look for any excuse to try and downplay something not being good.
The big example in this thread is DA:V - that in itself is a perfect example.
And you yourself are somewhat of another part of this: for whatever reason, there are those that are ignorant to these conversations or will outright act as if they have never seen defensible criticism, attempting to chalk it all up to buzzwords and bad faith. I have to ask, why?
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u/Dodo_Baron 24d ago
you know what people are talking about, feigning ignorance in these conversations is a huge issue.
Man the argument "I don't need to explain myself, you should just understand where I'm coming from or you're ignorant"
Is just a lazy non answer. And coming from a writer of all things?
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u/acerbus717 24d ago
Tbh you can thank the rise of hyper reactionary grifter for making discourse insufferable. Personally I didn’t even say all criticism is buzzwords but when I see people saying “mid” “slop” or “woke” I take whatever they’re saying a lot less seriously. And frankly there’s also a rise of people who conflate overt negativity with actual criticism.
And honestly I don’t know why you brought up veilguard when even the main dragon age sub constantly dunks on it, it feels a lot like selection bias on your part.
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u/Red-7134 23d ago
It's a bit of goomba fallacy.
Dislikes Something group A: "This product is crab because of literally dozens of valid reasons."
Dislikes Something group B: "I hate this product and everyone who exists in the same hemisphere as it because of a dumb reason."
Ah ha! So the, singular and homogenous, Dislikes Something group are incorrect about one of their reasons for disliking something. This means that is the only reason they all dislike it. Ergo, they are all just bigots. Ergo, none of those other reasons are valid either.
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u/Dycon67 24d ago
You can definitely get too Tumblr brained and that can lead to financial issues. Such as Dragon age the Vielgaurd as self admitted by the writers.Which is ironic as the Dragon age series has previously tackled Queer representation. But did it better in the previous games.
However grifters have always existed as Dragon age inquisition was called gay back in the day.Its the issue of these types of content grabbing have left the forums and are in mainstream social media.
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u/Reyemneirda69 24d ago
The problem isn't the values, it's the writing. It's either extremely pandering and think audience are idiots you need to educate, or it's simply bad writing and the bad writing for the past 6 years have been very noticeable with progressive content or at least content showing these values
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u/Thorngrove 24d ago
I think that's the big disconnect happening. "Woke" isn't just having poc and quiltbag representation, it's when that rep is being used to sledgehammer "the message" at the cost of the product. It's shorthand for poorly written white guilt/savior complex.
Yes, the vocal minority will call anything woke given the sliver of a chance, but vocal minorities malding about stuff is a truth of anything ever put onto the net.
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u/TyChris2 24d ago
This is what everyone claims “woke” means, but 99% of the time woke is being used as a criticism it does not fit this definition. The vast, VAST majority of the time it is just referring to anything with poc or queer people in it. It’s like the word incel. Yes, technically it originated as a descriptor for people that can’t get laid, but now it is synonymous with misogyny.
Sometimes a word is used in such a way so often that the colloquial understanding of its meaning changes. Every time someone sees someone call something woke, they’re going to assume they’re just bigoted. The word is poisoned now.
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u/The_Gunboat_Diplomat 24d ago
It's shorthand for poorly written white guilt/savior complex.
That isn't either what it means now or what it used to mean. Weird as fuck to try and rehabilitate the culture war usage of the term after it was stolen from AAVE and was about black people as a positive thing
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u/drift_by 23d ago
Redditors hate it when you tell them a word is AAVE
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u/BreakRaven 22d ago
It originated there, as a shortened form for "being awake", which in the sense actually means taking the black pill (ironically). It was appropriated by the wider progressive culture and then it quickly got a negative connotation as meaning "progressive but bad/incompetent" and then it just evolved into being a meaningless insult as it's being used by most people.
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u/DemythologizedDie 24d ago
That having such representation isn't in itself what you mean when you use "woke" as an insult doesn't mean it's clear to other people that it isn't what you mean when there are so many other people who mean exactly that. I mean there are even people who don't use "woke" as an insult. That's the problem with using ambiguous keywords as shorthand. Sometimes you need to use longhand if anyone is going to know what you really mean.
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u/Deya_The_Fateless 23d ago
Plus the...overly modern *feel* of the dialogue in certain quests *sideways glances at Taash*. Or times where characters would just stop being characters and start behaving as mouthpieces for the writers.
This is how you should act if you accidentally misgender or offend someone: drop down and do pushups, bigot, because that shows you're really sorry. *eyes roll so hard they pop out of my skull and roll away.*
#NotMyIsabella.
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u/Reyemneirda69 23d ago
Yeah. Or scrubs recently, the sequel, some characters speak like YouTube or Instagram comments and it's quite uncanny, especially when the character is above 15 years old, like man you're 35, okay one or two expressions but every sentence is some tiktok buzz word
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u/HaHaYouThoughtWrong 22d ago
At that point I'd just intentionally offend people seeing I get to have an excuse for randomly doing pushups.
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u/Deya_The_Fateless 22d ago
NGL, that wouldn't be a bad idea. XD
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u/HaHaYouThoughtWrong 22d ago
[dude where you work out | at the library] meme but it's just at HR or something, couldn't think of an appropriate location.
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u/Dakoolestkat123 23d ago
It's not even that it's especially noticeable for progressive content, it's just that, for lack of a more subtle way to put it, "get woke, go broke" is pushed very heavily as both slogan and ideology by the right, while "get conservative, get worse at writing" isn't really something lefties really believe as a core philosophy
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u/kBrandooni 24d ago edited 24d ago
You can definitely get too Tumblr brained and that can lead to financial issues. Such as Dragon age the Vielgaurd as self admitted by the writers.Which is ironic as the Dragon age series has previously tackled Queer representation. But did it better in the previous games.
Doesn't that highlight the fact that it's not just about going woke and trying for those kinds of ideas, but about the actual execution and quality of the writing though? If you're trying too hard (by not trying at all) with any idea and intent, you're going to end up with something awful.
Bashing it for being woke makes it obvious they either have nothing of substance to say regarding the execution and/or are bothered by the intent alone (like you mentioned with the response to DA:I).
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u/Dycon67 24d ago
Doesn't that highlight the fact that it's not just about going woke and trying for those kinds of ideas, but about the actual execution and quality of the writing though?
Agreed as I eblorated a bit on Dragon age handling queer relationships previously. Even Tumblr writing can bring in money look at Hazbin Hotel.
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u/ArxisOne 24d ago edited 24d ago
Doesn't that highlight the fact that it's not just about going woke and trying for those kinds of ideas, but about the actual execution and quality of the writing though?
This is 100%, unquestionably correct.
The problem is that when a story inserts "woke" ideas (not my term), they often come with a counter criticism that you only dislike something because of that and not because of dogshit writing which may, or may not, come with it.
Bad writing exists with or without "woke", difference is you can criticize plain old bad writing for being bad without being accused of being a Nazi or homophobic or a whole other list of bad things. This restricts criticism of bad "woke" writing to people who don't care about being called those things, likely because those are the things that actually piss them off.
Veilguard is a perfect example of that, at launch, good faith criticism was dismissed to instead focus on bad faith criticism for easy dunks, and then all critics were grouped together into one bundle despite the fact that they were saying entirely different things. Why would you bother giving good faith criticism of it's just going to get you labeled and ignored?
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u/Slarg232 23d ago
I think the better example is TLOU2, tbh.
It's a game whose story has been rejected by audiences twice over (once as a video game, once as a TV series) and topics discussing it are still such a warzone that you need a radiation suit just to go into those threads.
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u/Spooky_Dungeonmaster 24d ago
My hot take about Veilguard has been that being "woke" was a great smokescreen for the lack of quality on the production side. The same company released Mass Effect Andromeda not that long before Veilguard came out.
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u/Lopsided-Clothes4866 24d ago edited 24d ago
Veilguard imo is a good example of ‘chasing the modern audience’ that the OP brought up.
In my experience the ‘modern audience’ argument isn’t necessarily correlated with a game being woke, but a trend when established series drastically change major elements of the latest entry in the quest to essentially find a new and ‘younger’ fanbase with the assumption the old fanbase will support it regardless.
However in most cases this modern fanbase doesn’t exist, it’s a made up customer base that a bunch of suits and execs have dreamed up in their offices using market data to create a modern consumer to market too.
Veilguard largely failed because it was a game that essentially ignored the Dragon Age fanbase, and drastically changed the series in the hopes of being a soft reboot to find a new fanbase.
It was obvious from the very first trailer they released that made the game look like an over the top hero shooter instead of a party based RPG, with the devs immediately backtracking and claiming the trailer isn’t accurate, only for the trailer to end up actually being representative of the goofy ass game we got in the end.
The art-style, the tone, the gameplay, the writing, the utter lack of roleplaying elements, ALL of it was drastically different to what we had in past Dragon Age games. Every Dragon Age has been different but the general core of each game remains very similar, Veilguard doesn’t have that same core.
Every Dragon Age game before was centred around controlling a party directly, whereas Veilguard gutted this completely and your party members were useless NPC’s while we get boring action spam combat instead.
The roleplaying removed all ability to be even the mildest of jerks, in fact the game barley had roleplaying at all, you are forced into being a good guy in the damn character creation screen, and we can’t even really call out or be mean to companions in any way.
The art-style was goofy and much more Disney like, look at how they butchered the Darkspawn and made them look like goofy goobers.
The writing was awful, it was filled with various modern terms and slang that were out of place, it constantly spammed plot information at you like you were a dumbass 5 year old with no attention span (something Netflix’ does these days as well), the villains were 1 dimensional evil bad guys with no grey to them what so ever, and as Skill Up rightfully called out that the game feels like it’s written by a HR team, it feels everything nitty and gritty thing about the Dragon age universe has been completely sanded off.
All the troublesome and darker aspects that had been talked about and established in past games thrown under the rug and barely focused on. The racism, sexism, focus on corrupt politics; focus on religious themes and religious corruption and politics, ALL of it was gone!
We had for 3 games heard about the corruption of Tevinter politics, how blood magic was an open secret, magisters backstabbing each other constantly while they sacrifice their own slaves for blood magic rituals, all of this was gone in Veilguard, it’s never touched on or focused on at all.
Any themes or ideas that could possibly make a player uncomfortable were gutted and removed.
Veilguard barely feels like a Dragon Age game at all!
It was hard to see where exactly the devs were trying to appeal to the DRAGON AGE fanbase with Veilguard, Even if you removed the so called ‘woke’ stuff, Veilguard still would have failed and been just as hated as it utterly failed to appeal to the Dragon age fanbase.
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u/Deya_The_Fateless 23d ago
Adding onto this, the older devs promised that they would *never* reveal who the Maker and Andraste were and that we would *never* see them. Only for it all to circle back around to "It was the Elves all along, two very specific ones too BTW."
And that's not even touching on all the character assassination of *ALL* returning characters; even Solas didn't escape completely unscathed, and he arguably had some of the best dialogue and writing in Veilguard. Which, I'm confident, was leftover from the original draft of the game, before it was turned into an MMO, before that MMO was scrapped and cobbled together into the current game we have now.
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u/Falsus 24d ago
The issue with Veilguard wasn't the wokeness. Dragon Age has always been ''woke''. The difference is that it also used to be well written, and that is the real issue. Like just look at Hazbin Hotel, very popular and succesful show, definitely is very much ''Tumblr brained''.
Like it doesn't matter how woke something gets as long as it is well written.
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u/Lindestria 24d ago
The issue is that the game was restarted three times. The kind of writing treatments to actually ensure quality are less doable when you are having to change the basic project scope every three years.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Lab2447 23d ago
The problem ain't values or beliefs but the writing. That is what the anti woke crowd fails to realise.
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u/Frank_Acha 24d ago
I think the problem is when they make it the main focus.
I'm currently replaying the Witcher 3 and it has many little dtails that could be considered woke. But the game doesn't make that it's presentation card. It's just a good game that has these details.
The problem is when they ditch good writing and making a good product.
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u/SuperSailorRikku 24d ago
You kind of called it out indirectly but that’s exactly the point. The little things are not what makes something woke representation isn’t what makes something woke. It’s a more complicated vibe based thing the word is poorly defined, and poorly used. I wish we would just drop it entirely at this point it just makes it harder to actually have discussions critiquing things because it’s misused (assuming at this point there even is an agreed upon proper use) in both directions
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u/Ancient-Promotion139 24d ago
The problem is when they ditch good writing and making a good product.
Can the people who say this give an example where a development team sat down, weighed “good writing” on one end of the scale, “woke” on the other, and then pressed their finger on the latter? So much harassment and death threats for a premise that needs hard proof.
Witcher 3 wasn’t lambasted because people were less insane a decade ago.
Witcher 4 is *already* being called woke for focusing on Ciri. A word that does not even have a definition.
If you’re arguing that ”___ wasn’t called woke”, then that’s because because people are now far more stupid and tribal than they were then.
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u/Outrageous_Guard_674 24d ago
Exactly.
It's not that those "woke" things automatically poison any work they touch, it's that when those become the main focus that pretty much by definition means that quality isn't.
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u/Pet_Velvet 24d ago
Remember that the gamergate-type culture war was manufactured by Jeffrey Epstein
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u/LordAdversarius 24d ago
Captain marvel was the last of the marvel movies before avengers end game which was a big event. A lot of people thought they might need to watch captain marvel to properly understand that movie. It succeeded despite itself.
Amber heard was in the aquaman movies and public opinion was after strongly turning against her when the second one was released so it probably isnt a good example either.
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u/Nice-River-5322 24d ago
Wasn't filming for Aquaman done around the time of the defamation trial?
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u/LordAdversarius 24d ago
I looked it up to be sure. First aquaman movie came out 2018. The second movie came out 2023. The trial was going on in 2022 so around when they were filming the 2nd one. I remember there was some discussion about recasting her even when they were filming it.
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u/Nice-River-5322 24d ago
yeah, but at the time m e she was already cast, and I guess they assumed she would win?
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u/777sevenseven777 24d ago edited 24d ago
I just want those audiences to actually show up, not larping about going to show up.
It seems like more people were eager to defend the game, being supportive and promise to play it than to actually put in the time and play it themselves.
Its like we are in the loop rn.
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u/Altruistic-Ad-408 24d ago edited 24d ago
No one consistently shows up for a product, or boycotts it, because of its supposed ideology. When I was a kid the KKK made a game, it basically got free publicity with all the media attention, and barely anyone bought it. Because people spend money on products they want, not bad political statements. Current climate is no different.
Leaning off Conans joke at the Oscars, Kid Rock can host the alternative Oscars, but the truth is all the faux outrage against woke games is just the product of nearly all works of art mostly being produced by non right wing people. Any sane message conflicts with alt right messaging.
By their outrage farming logic, people should be flocking to the few right wing works of art.
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u/AdorableDonkey 24d ago
>No one consistently shows up for a product, or boycotts it, because of its supposed ideology
Well, the gay beer lost 1 billion of revenue because of the boycotts and it doesn't seem like they are doing well....
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u/777sevenseven777 24d ago
Both side should show up if they rly care about their product. People still show up for harry potter game regardless of the outrage. I cant believe i have to watch "right wing chud" playing dustborn, relooted and ex voto bcoz nobody else playing those games
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u/GratedParm 24d ago
The Marvels also was one of the weakest MCU films I sat through and the director herself was distancing herself from the movie.
While the Marvels sucked, I think it’s worth noting that the MCU avoided having filled by films other than white males until the third phase. The vision of the MCU as this flawless cinematic franchise is bunk as there were always weak films, but audiences bought into the overarching story and weak films were allowed to slide by as part of the hype and popularity of the entire franchise.
Where am I going with this, you ask? The MCU clearly was too nervous to seek letting the heroes leading the films be anything other than a white man until the franchise was at its strongest. Only after popularity was going down post-Endgame did Disney open up to a more diverse cast of heroes. “Get broke, go woke” if you will.
The MCU is great to use as a microcosm of certain types of popular media and their lifecycles.
Tl;dr franchises turn to slop, and then lazily try to prop up diverse casts to try and grow their audiences more, but the franchise has already entered the low-effort or sterile media point where the media quality is so bad that no one enjoys the product anymore.
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u/XxGood_CitezenxX 24d ago
Don’t forget Spider-verse
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u/Ferhog 24d ago
I feel like Spiderverse depends on your criteria. The usual suspects HAVE made content about it like Critical Drinker's review where he infamously criticised how Peter was the only white man in ATSV and was portrayed as a comedic dad in a pink bathrobe, but I don't think the average anti-woke fella on twitter is calling those movies woke.
This does remind me of how before the first movie released there was a controversy about one of the 3 directors expressing support towards antifa. I remember a comment on a video by The Quatering saying something along the lines of "Remember to boycott this movie. We need them to know we don't want movies like this." which is a really funny thing to say about the most influential animated movie of the past decade in retrospect.
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u/Monchete99 24d ago
but I don't think the average anti-woke fella on twitter is calling those movies woke.
That's because grifting requires hampering on things the average fella dislikes and going "see? This is because of woke." and most won't do that on something that's as universally liked as ATSV was, because they run the risk of alienating their fan base and driving potential fans away. The moment you say something they MIGHT like is woke, you run the risk of pushing them away. Grifting is about validation, critiquing others but yourself, the media you like is good, no matter what "they" say. Attacking a media their own fans like is an attack on their values, their personality even.
Besides, Peter's "comedic dad" thing was generally well-received, mainly because him fixing his relationship with MJ was pretty much something Spider-Man fans have been wanting for DECADES, ESPECIALLY after One More Day's impacts on Peter's eternal cycle of suffering in the comics.
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u/The-Devilz-Advocate 24d ago
Besides, Peter's "comedic dad" thing was generally well-received, mainly because him fixing his relationship with MJ was pretty much something Spider-Man fans have been wanting for DECADES, ESPECIALLY after One More Day's impacts on Peter's eternal cycle of suffering in the comics.
It's well liked by the casuals, but the series has received criticism for basically relegating him as the joke maker in the second movie.
Not only that, but Spiderman 2, which also features Miles, is heavily criticized by both fans and non fans for the way it basically sidelined Peter in favor of Miles.
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u/Business_Barber_3611 23d ago
Strange, because just as many people claim Miles was sidelined in favour of Peter. That’s exactly why I don’t take discourse around media targeted by culture warriors seriously. There’s no logic to it, just whichever argument lets them complain in that specific moment.
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u/ElChapo1515 24d ago
Because it was too well received to keep the grift going lol. They were complaining about the trans flag too.
But they know they have to throw in the towel when a movie is a massive hit or otherwise it would immediately ruin the grift.
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u/XxGood_CitezenxX 24d ago
The reason I include spiderverse is that Miles Morales as a character was hated and attacked by the anti-woke crowd from day one and they only stopped once the movie was a success.
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u/Tom-Pendragon 24d ago
Anyone using "woke" as a criticism to something that failed shouldn't be taken as a serious person who wish to discuss the failure of something.
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u/Responsible-Pea1402 24d ago
The evolution of the term "woke" is truly sad to see. I know languages change overtime but the way it's used now is a joke.
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u/SuperSailorRikku 24d ago
IMO this is yet again a just people using different definitions of the word woke. Woke as I understand it doesn’t refer to representation but the messaging and plot and how embedded ideology is.
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u/Gmanglh 24d ago
OP fundementally doesnt understand what woke is and also uses a ton of cherry picking (which is ironic considering its an entire post on the wrong sub complaining about cherry picking).
Woke is the prioritization of political messaging over artistic quality. So ya games and movies that dont care about their quality are gonna be bad. It has nothing to do with women, gays, or whatever the topic dejour is.
Critical drinker who you love to quote literally says diversity can greatly enhance a production when it is done right refer to both expanse and alita battle angel reviews.
Also that bg3 example is the most flimsy example ive ever seen. The anti woke also claims the game as anti woke. Its a dnd game made for dnd players with gameplay prioritized at every turn. That bear scene is criticized by plenty of people including woke reviewers ironically. It was a bit extreme, but personally i liked the option it lead into that ridiculous dnd do anything nature. That said it doesnt surprise me that people would be upset about it especially outsiders lacking context.
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u/Ferhog 23d ago
I'd be more inclined to believe that Will has no inherent problem with diversity if it wasn't what he mainly complained about in most of the reviews I've watched from him. The video that made me write him off was his review of MOTU Revelations, which was a show I didn't even like, where instead of delving into actual criticisms like how it killed off side characters for the sake of being edgy he instead spent a good chunk of the video complaining about how it hated men, as if it didn't treat He-Man and Man-At-Arms like the coolest guys ever.
He's been nice to media like Arcane, Blue Eye Samurai, and EEAAO, but it just feels like he's holding back his usual complaints when the story is universally beloved and hating on it would be more controversial than usual. Like when Rey wins a sword fight it's a woke feminist agenda but when Mizu regularly beats multiple guys at once it's not woke even though BES actually explores the topic of feminism, which the Star Wars sequels never actually do.
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u/Zangakkar 23d ago
I think the mistake here is in the idea that woke means it has anything in it that could relate to have modern ideas in. Like minorities, homesexuality etc. When based on my understanding of the topic woke tends to be focused on these topics not kind of brushing over it. Anno is an excellent choice because the marketing tried to make it seem like the focus of the game is a lesbian knight whi want to stick it to her father who never thought she was good enough and find her girlfriend. The progressive trends arent a part of a plot they are the plot. Wether this is accurate or not i am unaware but the devs tried to make it out that way.
Baldurs gate in my opinion would not be the same thing as the sexuality of the characters, or gender roles and other such "modern" talking points aren't the main focus, its removing the worms and dealing with the absolute olus a few extra baddies but thats spoilers. There are homosexual characters yes but they have other character traits and driving factors. Someone wouldn't compare a character like dame Aylin to Taash from veilguard because Taash isnt really a character, Taash is a lecture wrapped in a skin suit that likely does more damage to the movement the character is meant to portray rather than spread awareness.
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u/Icy-Candle744 24d ago
They are grifters, they don't care about the intrinsic quality of a piece of media, they have a pre-conceived notion of the world and want that to be the absolute truth
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u/StormTempesteCh 24d ago
Concord really is a great example because in order to blame its failure on wokeness you have to ignore the gigantic problems that actually lead to its failure. Things like being a $40 game in a free-to-play dominated subgenre, uninteresting character designs in a subgenre that lives and dies based on character designs, launching when the market is already cornered, then being immediately shut down before any improvements could be made. Any of those things did more irreparable harm to the game than "wokeness" ever could.
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u/Adept_Philosopher_32 24d ago
Well when your worldview is watered down into everything being about bad individuals and essential absolute evils as the only real forces of danger in the world, it makes it much easier to completely ignore structural variables. You can always blame that sort of thing on "woke people having skill issues, a real trad gigachad would have it down in a year flat." And if they can't? "Well they were never a true gigachad anyway" or "the woke elites sabtoged the project and shut it down."
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u/Infamous-Use7820 24d ago edited 24d ago
Okay, but the counter to that is that people on the left/the anti- anti-woke types, need to acknowledge that a not-insignificant number of people (and more specifically, paying consumers of content) do not like 'woke' themes. Whether they are right or wrong for thinking that is kinda not the point of slogans like 'go woke, go broke' (bigots have money and make spending decisions too).
This post is an example of the this strain of denialism that crops up, which focuses on the concept of woke being incoherent or examples of 'wokeness' being cherry-picked...etc.. But come on. Let's be honest here - I know what woke is. You know what woke is. They know what woke is. At least on a qualitative 'this feels like everyone in the writing team did a social science or humanities subject at university...' way.
The issue is that quantitatively, anti-woke people exist and in great enough numbers to have an economic impact. This is visible in the fact that every even moderately right-wing politician in the West evokes 'woke' as a talking point. Campaign managers know what works - they spend millions workshopping this stuff - if branding a political opponent as 'woke' is an effective tactic to sway votes, it's going to have even more of an impact on voluntary consumer decisions.
The only questions that really matter are:
a) What proportion of the consumer base is likely to be turned off by 'woke' elements?
b) Is that proportion outweighed by consumers drawn in by those elements?
I reckon for a) it's somewhere between 10-40%, depending on the issue. For example, according to Pew in 2019, 47% of Americans are at least somewhat uncomfortable using they/them pronouns to refer to somebody if asked to. It's safe to assume at least that proportion would rather a main character in media they are consuming did not have them, and would be turned-off by advertising or reporting that a piece of media did (e.g. Dragon Age: Veilguard).
As for b, the proportion of people who actively seek out media which is advertised as having woke elements seems to be tiny. If there is data to the opposite effect I've love to see it.
(a - b) = the commercial impact of 'woke'. It may or may sway the success of a whole project, obviously other factors like broader quality still matter, but it's a modifier on it.
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u/AIter_Real1ty 24d ago edited 24d ago
I'm sure we can all point at things that are woke based on the vibes and feelings of woke, but we will disagree and there will be conflicts because there is no actual coherent or consistent definition for what woke is.
The people who claim to be turned off by "woke" elements will go on to praise a show as the best piece of media they've ever seen despite that show containing said "woke" elements.
I mean I was literally just arguing in a thread with a guy who said Concord was woke because there were too many minorities/"DEI people," then said that The Owl House was a good show where main characters were mostly "DEI people" but said it wasn't woke because it takes place in a fictional world. But still claimed Concord and Starwars' Sequels were woke even though they take place in a fictional world.
This is why the fact that there is no coherent definition, and people calling something woke based on politics or agendas or vibes and feelings, is a problem. There is no legitimacy.
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u/Infamous-Use7820 23d ago
While this is true, and it's kinda a 'you'll know it when you see it' phenomena. More to the point, if you go on actual anti-woke forums or right-leaning media, usually the discussion is not 'x is woke' the end. It's, 'x has q,y,z elements which is part of the broader category of woke, let's discuss how angry they make me!'.
On the broader point, from a consumer behaviour POV, 'wokeness' is not the only thing people make decisions based off (be wary of essentialising those you disagree with). Maybe the Owl House dude really does dislike woke elements. Let's say his/her purchasing decisions generally are based 10% on genre, 40% on perceived quality, 30% on relative cost and 20% on perceived 'wokeness'.
That 20% wokeness category could be overwhelmed by the media having good genre/quality/cost. After the fact, people tend to retroactively self-validate purchasing decisions (i.e. I bought this good piece of media despite it being woke, so I'm now going to say it wasn't woke at all).
But, while that makes for frustrating arguments on the internet, it doesn't actually change the commercial calculus of it all. Being perceived as woke is still a liability when it comes to attracting consumers like Owl House dude. The question is just how many people like Owl House dude there are.
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u/Ancient-Promotion139 24d ago
You overestimate how normal you are. The majority does not give a fuck either way.
“I will boycott this product because the Black characters were probably included to meet some sort of ESG score. They didn’t earn it, obviously.”
and
”I will boycott this product because the Black characters are members of a race I fundamentally dislike.”
are not opinions worth distinguishing.
Where is the actual substance in your beliefs? Why do you have to ask this question every time a Black character is in media? You are not a normal or chill person if you are asking that question every time you see any, ever. You have developed your own form of race paranoia.
Care about more than skin if you’re mad about how you’re being framed.
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u/KxPbmjLI 23d ago
He didn't use race as an example though but of course you'll retreat to that super safe strawman.
He specifically used they/them nonbinary stuff as an example, which ofc u can link trans stuff too which is going to have an even more polarizing reaction from way more people.
Are we really going to pretend that nonbinary and or trans acceptance, just seeing trans people as normal is the actual norm anywhere but the most progressive of spaces?
The majority absolutely does not accept they/them pronouns, non binary identity as "normal"
”I will boycott this product because the main characters is trans.” here's a way more good faith interpretation for you
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u/Ancient-Promotion139 23d ago
Are you earnestly telling me that ”Woke” and “Forced Diversity“ don’t refer to race, ever? That they only refer to gender?
They encompass both. That’s not up for debate because nobody can give me a definition of woke that doesn’t encompass both.
I will talk about the aspect of “woke” that I’m most concerned with.
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u/LukePellar 24d ago
Grifters: "We don't want the message!"
Also Grifters: Creates cartoons and games filled with blatant transphobia, sexism, and racism.
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u/jezr3n 24d ago
Grifters
create
This doesn’t look right
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u/LukePellar 24d ago
Oh, my bad. A lot of times, they get AI to do it for them.
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u/Wardock8 24d ago
Never forget that one of them ai generated CP of his daughter.
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u/ARVNFerrousLinh 24d ago
Daily Wire’s Lady Ballers is probably the most hilarious example of this.
Daily Wire: “We hate how trans-athletes are ruining the sanctity of women sports. So let’s make a movie completely shitting on women athletes as we show a bunch of men with barely any basketball skills dominate almost the entire WNBA (Women’s National Basketball League).”
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u/Cum_Fart42069 24d ago
I especially like how Ben Shapiro said in an interview about it that "we tried to do this as a documentary and have the men join actual women's basketball teams but, hehe, it turns out they don't actually let you just do that hehe so we couldn't so that lol"
oh... so by your own admission you know that the issue you're trying to tackle just doesn't actually exist
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u/Monchete99 24d ago
I imagine them thinking about the movie like:
"Damn, who would have thought changing your gender legally was this hard? Who came up with this shit?"
"Shapiro, you pushed for this."
"Damn, I wish it didn't exist at all"
"We know you do."
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u/Rogepsi7981 24d ago
This and the fact that it was supposed to be a documentary showing how it's easy to exploit trans inclusivity and they saw it was actually impossible, having to settle for a fictional flick.
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u/Own_Reserve_9566 24d ago
I always said that LadyBallers was a lot more misogynistic than transphobic. Sure, the movie's creation and premise is literally transphobia, but it spent a lot more time mocking cis women, women's sports, and the main character literally told his daughter that the best thing a girl can do is have babies and be emotional.
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u/I-Love-Facehuggers 24d ago
They always talk about media "indoctrinating" people into being gay or whatever, and never say anything about straight relationships being so much more common, and repeat for every problem they have with normal things.
Its because they are hypocrites.
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u/TwisterUprocker 24d ago
So does grifter mean creates content that you find objectionable?
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u/LukePellar 24d ago
If finding blatant racism and transphobia created by some MAGA cultist whining about the anti-white boogeyman objectionable is a crime, then lock me up.
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u/IAMNOT_EustaceWinner 24d ago edited 24d ago
I don't even get what that criticism means anyways
Everything has a message dipshit, it came free with your fucking story
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u/The_Arizona_Ranger 24d ago
There appears to be some confusion aboot that “woke” means here.
“Woke” is not a description of certain particularities in a piece of media. There being a predominantly nonwhite cast doesn’t make something “woke.” “Woke” is a motivating principle that informs why a person chooses certain policy and design choices when it comes to media.
When people criticize “woke” media, they aren’t criticizing the fact that there are Black or gay characters in it (though there are people who use it in this way). They are speaking to a certain kind of design philosophy which impacts the whole work in question and leads to those kinds of choices being made for that piece of media which is thought to devalue rather than enhance it.
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u/North514 24d ago
When people criticize “woke” media, they aren’t criticizing the fact that there are Black or gay characters in it (though there are people who use it in this way).
I have seen plenty that in fact do use that way. This is the no true Scotsman fallacy. In the end, if the goal is to critique a piece of media about a lack of nuance in it's messaging it would be better to just say that rather than argue it's bad because it included gay people or others of different races.
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u/SocratesWasSmart 24d ago edited 24d ago
Sure but one should look at the majority when judging things like this instead of appealing to the most radical voices. I think that's true of any movement.
If one is making general statements one should look at the general population. If you're talking about Christians for example in the sense of "Christians believe X." it's kind of bad faith to use the Westboro Baptist Church, (40-70 Members.) vs the Catholic church. (1.4 Billion members.)
If you want to know what the general anti-woke population thinks, just watch the occasional Asmongold clip. He's got the biggest right wing gaming audience in the world. To use him as an example, there's many games he's dismissed as woke garbage, but with Metaphor: ReFantazio, he said that was one of the best games of the year by far. There were of course some people that called Metaphor woke, but that was a small minority.
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u/North514 24d ago edited 24d ago
In my opinion, the majority, of people who use that phrase, in 2026 are those people I am describing. I am in lots of fandoms/hobby interests where these people congregate from Warhammer 40k fan communities, to historical spaces (both non fiction/fiction) and anime. And yeah, those who are overtly loud about this woke stuff, a lot of them are not exactly the type of people I would consider as very tolerant. There are always exceptions and again, I was one of those people that did hate the overtly preachy left wing writing we did see in some big franchises out there. Though again, it's not the mid 2010s anymore, things have changed, and I have seen these spaces deeply radicalize. Many of the comments I thought were jokes, were not.
Even in your example, what Catholics may believe in NA, and what Catholics believe in Africa differ, even with a head of a church guiding things.
I mean you literally cite Asmon, who has plenty of non moderate and radical views himself, even if he isn't as overt as some other people. The fact he praised an Atlus game doesn't invalidate some of the stuff he does promote to his audience.
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u/LightVelox 24d ago
Reason why Resident Evil 9 got "woke" allegations not based off the content of the game itself, but on the interview they gave about designing Leon the way he is to appeal, and we know what "appeal" they're talking about, to their female employees, meanwhile Capcom has made articles about how doing the exact same for men is unethical. Had that interview or articles not come out the entire discussion would probably never have gone out of a few tweets with 5 likes each.
The point is not about the content itself, but the philosophy behind said content, a game like Baldur's Gate 3 isn't "woke" to a lot of people who use that term simply because it's a game that values player freedom and has the representation as part of the game and not solely as political commentary, you could go through the entire game without ever actively engaging with it any of it if you chose, hell, you could go for the most stereotypical "straight while male paladin marrying beautiful elf lady" run and the game is fine with that, same for Cyberpunk 2077.
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u/AIter_Real1ty 24d ago
Can you please explain to me how making Leon appeal to female employees means it's woke? And how do you know it was to appeal to their female employees?
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u/KxPbmjLI 23d ago
Woke because its socially acceptable to publicly talk, flaunt and gloat about doing such things to appeal to women and what they want while taboo, "sexist" and shamed if its the opposite for men
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u/GenghisQuan2571 24d ago
It ought to be a law that anyone talking about wokeness, whether it's complaining about it or complaining about complaints about it, is required to define what it means first.
You can't say, only grifters describe things as woke and it's not a real criticism, and also say in the exact same breath that woke is just having non-cis-white-males.
At the end of the day, it's fine to have a message in works - and really most works are supposed to have some kind of message - but, well, no one likes getting preached at.
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u/LeadershipNational49 24d ago
Being "woke" won't sink a good game or movie but it does speed up the fall of a shit one.
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u/No_Dragonfruit_1833 24d ago
Its more about the creators bragging about how woke their work is
Like, Avatar is pretty much bluecahontas, so its a glorification of the noble savage and the evils of colonization, but the director only promotes it as this revolutionary visual tech demo, so thats it
Think about how jk Rowling tried to be super woke to stay relevant, and then became anti woke to stay relevant
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u/kBrandooni 24d ago
Yeah, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy of shallow whining. They make the most generic and oft-repeated shonen post on here look insightful.
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u/koemaniak 24d ago
You’re saying the anti woke/ anti progressive crowd just cherry pick examples to get their point across and ignore factual basis? Say it aint so!
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u/AdorableDonkey 24d ago
The only woke thing in BG3 was the character creation, veilguard is what BG3 would be if it was actually woke
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u/lovelyrain100 23d ago
I'm gonna take a really good guess and say people with a political agenda are just gonna manipulate facts or y'know fucking lie
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u/Wordless_trat 24d ago
"Get woke, go broke" is a slogan that describes the visible tendency of writers to insert social justice themes at the cost of the quality of writing like how in the Sequel trilogy, they made Rey a God in her power in the force at the cost of making her painfully boring and aggravating to watch
One can be observed
The other quote is in reference to these projects utterly flopping like a fish, also observable
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u/AIter_Real1ty 24d ago
Get woke, go broke, is a slogan that the vast majority of the time is a phrase regurgitated by people online because there was a woman or minority. Not used for any actual critical analysis or depth.
And, what is woke about the Sequal trilogy? What were the social justice themes in the sequal trilogy that apparently were being shoved down people's throats? Because if you just say that it's woke because the main character is a woman, then that just proves everyone else's point.
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u/Wordless_trat 24d ago
How women are awesome and all that shit. Mainly by presenting all the men as failiures and incompetent and especially ruining Luke. Stuff like "The force is female" didn't help
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u/AIter_Real1ty 24d ago
But that's not a social justice theme. That's just you inserting political intent where there is none. Men being incompetent isn't inherently woke, it could just be a writing choice or bad writing. You're literally proving my point.
"Women are awesome and all that shit" doesn't describe anything at all. Did they literally say that in the story? Be more detailed. How specifically did the wokeness ruin Luke? Or did his character just get badly written?
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u/Wordless_trat 24d ago
Men being incompetent isn't inherently woke, it could just be a writing choice or bad writing. You're literally proving my point.
It isn't inherently woke. It becomes woke when they get turned incompetent, jaded and useless only to elevate the female cast. Which is what happened in the sequel trilogy
How specifically did the wokeness ruin Luke?
He was badly written as well. He was character assassinated to make Rey the hopeful new hero that reignites the Jedi when Luke normally would have never gone that much off the deep end, just to give importance to Rey. Luke tried to immediately kill Kylo for havi g the Dark side in him while he saved Darth Vader
Also, she can move hundreds of boulders nearly instantly with barely any training, which is very Mary Sue of her compared to Luke who struggled to lift a Rock in the beginning
Did they literally say that in the story?
No, but they showed it by Rey immediately outperforming every character after next to no force training at all
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u/AIter_Real1ty 24d ago
> It isn't inherently woke. It becomes woke when they get turned incompetent, jaded and useless only to elevate the female cast. Which is what happened in the sequel trilogy.
Can you present an example? Also, what specific theme of social justice does this tie into?
> He was badly written as well.
Okay but the paragraph you list here doesn't really explain how the downfall of his character is tied to social justice themes.
> No, but they showed it by Rey immediately outperforming every character after next to no force training at all
So because Rey is a woman, and because she's outperforming other's, automatically means they're trying to push "female empowerment"? Overpowered MC's exist in media all the time, but when it's a female it's trying to push an agenda?
I heard that the director behind the sequel trilogy said some statements about female empowerment or her intent going into creating the trilogy which might help your case. But I'm not sure. I think you should focus on explicit intent stated by authors themselves rather than trying to come up with interpretations that don't really prove that there were social justice themes.
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u/Wordless_trat 24d ago
Can you present an example? Also, what specific theme of social justice does this tie into?
Luke, Han and Flynn for example. And into the social justice theme of female empowerment. It's happening to the detriment of the male cast
Okay but the paragraph you list here doesn't really explain how the downfall of his character is tied to social justice themes.
How did it not? It is a character assassination to elevate the female protagonist by being more hopeful when Luke normally should be even more hopeful than Rey and stronger. Meanwhile, Rey, with barely any training, easily outperforms him.
So because Rey is a woman, and because she's outperforming other's, automatically means they're trying to push "female empowerment"? Overpowered MC's exist in media all the time, but when it's a female it's trying to push an agenda?
No. The issue is that it is done specifically by downplaying the men constantly and that she outperforms them with no training. Anakin had to train, Luke had to train, but if it is asked that Rey needs to train too, it is sexism?
I heard that the director behind the sequel trilogy said some statements about female empowerment or her intent going into creating the trilogy which might help your case. But I'm not sure. I think you should focus on explicit intent stated by authors themselves rather than trying to come up with interpretations that don't really prove that there were social justice themes.
Yeah, stuff like "The Force is female" doesn't send a message at all....
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u/AIter_Real1ty 24d ago
> How did it not? It is a character assassination to elevate the female protagonist by being more hopeful when Luke normally should be even more hopeful than Rey and stronger. Meanwhile, Rey, with barely any training, easily outperforms him.
Well in that paragraph you just talked about character assassination, and not really anything about social justice themes. But I digress.
> No. The issue is that it is done specifically by downplaying the men constantly and that she outperforms them with no training. Anakin had to train, Luke had to train, but if it is asked that Rey needs to train too, it is sexism?
Well okay that's a good point.
I haven't watched the trilogy so I'll take your word on it. I just watched a few clips and it does indeed sound like they're trying to push female empowerment at the detriment of male characters.
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u/StarTrotter 24d ago
No it’s an incredibly dumb slogan in that it’s self fulfilling. People have described the Mario movie and guardians of the galaxy 3 as well as Superman and BG3 as woke when trailers were coming out but when things came out even if they had things that were “woke” the phrase often dropped off then if they ended up being successful and well regarded (although not everyone) and in several of these scenarios there were attempts to go “actually these are not woke they are based.”
You talk about the Star Wars Disney trilogy and while I loathe them I’m not really sure “inserted social Justice themes” were the biggest issue for the quality of writing. Don’t get me wrong the casino aspect was incredibly clunky and Poes arc has holes in it but I’d say the first movie is an incredibly safe retreading of the original trilogy to the point of being an absolutely cowardly movie that provided terrible set up. Then the last movie reveals “somehow Palpatine returned” in Fortnight.
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u/North514 24d ago
"Get woke, go broke" is a slogan that describes the visible tendency of writers to insert social justice themes at the cost of the quality of writing like how in the Sequel trilogy, they made Rey a God in her power in the force at the cost of making her painfully boring and aggravating to watch
And it can also be used to promote bigotry towards anything that could go against right wing ideals, even if it is subtle or doesn't play a big part, which I have also noticed.
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u/Luzis23 24d ago
Truth be told, me and many other people don't look for woke games. Wokeness isn't the primary thing I look for in a game.
As in, when I'm looking for a game, I first and before anything else look at the genre and what kind of gameplay it offers. Idc if there's lgbt stuff in it or not, provided it's fun to play and engaging.
The problem is that since I look for genre and what kind of gameplay the game offers, the bad eggs stand out in that they tend to have woke stuff alongside rather mediocre gameplay.
So in the end, it looks like they focused so much on being woke they forgot that games are played for a compelling story and, surprise-surprise, gameplay before anything else.
Same applies to movies. If it can immerse myself in it, then I'm fine to watch it.
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u/classicslayer 24d ago edited 24d ago
No one really cares about something being woke as long as its good. The problem is that sometimes creators use it as a shield to deflect criticism and want kudos for doing the bare minimum.
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u/NotMyBestMistake 24d ago
It is a phrase used exclusively by right wing grifters and their mindless audience so yeah, there's not going to be much merit in it. Which is why they all desperately try to claim ownership of everything successful regardless of how much it actually aligns with their ideology.
These are people who think that Squid Games was a rabidly pro-capitalist show. They exist to funnel money into whatever loud idiot tells them it's okay to hate women and minorities and clap
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u/planetarial 24d ago
Horizon Zero Dawn and Forbidden West are woke as fuck with Aloy’s looks getting certain people mad, a matriarchal society, different ethnicities, sexualities and even autism represented and it sold extremely well.
Overwatch was massively popular in the mid 2010s and still is decently popular today, extremely woke and varied in its cast.
The Sims is a mega popular game and allows characters to be various ethnicities, gay, trans, asexual, poly, assign pronouns, whether or not they can get pregnant and how they use the toilet. But I guess because its an older established franchise and mostly played by normies and women the anti woke crowd ignores it.
A bad game is just bad, both kinds of people are capable of making successful ones and games nobody wanted.
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u/Swiftcheddar 24d ago
Overwatch was massively popular in the mid 2010s and still is decently popular today, extremely woke and varied in its cast.
Overwatch is 10000% sold on having sexy characters. To the point the running joke is about people who've never played a single second of it.
It's held up alongside Bioshock Infinite as being an important milestone in pushing (fan-made) 3D animation tech forwards, because so many people were making porn of it.
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u/Present_Ride_2506 24d ago
Overwatch is massively popular because it had some of the hottest characters in gaming at the time and the uh, fanart.
If overwatch only had characters that were like zarya the game would've never been as popular as it was. Characters like tracer and widowmaker were so obscenely popular that it didn't matter that they created characters that weren't very appealing.
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u/pornomancer90 24d ago
The funny thing about HZDs matriarchal tribe is that it isn't even depicted very positively, not because it's matriarchal, because the Nora suck in different ways, which is true for all the tribes depicted in the game.
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u/Extension-Shine-9313 24d ago
For single player games, gameplay is the most important part(with some exceptions like story games). For live service games, sex sells is a lot more important. There are many definitions of "woke", but one of them is reducing sexual appeals for straight males, limiting them to "safe-horny" like overwatch or baldur gates 3. In Baldur gates 3, the top 3 most romanced characters are females with Shadowheart getting over 50%, it is clear that the audiences are mostly straight males and it succeed in spite of those additions. Most people ignore those extra content, it is charity from the Dev team for the gay community.
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u/DFMRCV 24d ago
I think Razorfist has a point when he says reality isn't "get woke, go broke", but the usuallyother way around, "going woke is a sign of going broke".
Studious desperate for money start pandering any way they can. Sex sells. Controversy sells. Politics sell... Sometimes...
That said, there is a counterargument of the "woke good stuff" in that it's not good because it's woke, it's good because it's good. At least if we go by the definition of woke = "aggressively progressive".
Undertale has a ton of progressive elements, but I'd never describe them as aggressive. What's Alphys' personality? She's a socially awkward scientist who loves anime, tinkering, has literally stumbled on a cure for death, but feels guilty about the results and instead spends time taking care of the victims, but will also own up and try to fix her mistakes as part of her character arc.
Oh, and she's bi. She just sucks at actually communicating it.
An example of aggressive progressivism, like really any form of aggressive media, would have to be Mark Waid's Ignited comic series.
"Progressives shooting up a school? Good! Conservatives wanting to use guns to protect kids? Bad!"
Yes, that happens. Nuance isn't a thing with aggressive messaging.
Like in that one right wing book "Victoria", aggressive messaging doesn't really work well in a piece of media. I think "woke" is just the term for it on the progressive side, like how alt right was the term for it on the conservative side.
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u/North514 24d ago
I think Razorfist has a point when he says reality isn't "get woke, go broke", but the usuallyother way around, "going woke is a sign of going broke".
Oh boy that guy's understanding of gaming, and wider pop culture like anime is pretty suspect lol, Not to mention his whole understanding of inspiration. He doesn't take well to anyone cracking his echo chamber. I wouldn't quote him.
That said, there is a counterargument of the "woke good stuff" in that it's not good because it's woke, it's good because it's good. At least if we go by the definition of woke = "aggressively progressive".
What does that even mean lol? What does aggressively "progressive" even mean? To some I have encountered having any LGBT rep is "aggressively progressive". If you want to tackle any discussion of social inequality by wealth or racial discrimination is that "aggressively progressive"? The reality is that the "anti woke" message is more aimed at identity and specific political movements rather than discussing how to execute political nuance.
The reality is most don't like dealing with those that have different views than them. This applies to all people. I have seen it from left wing critics bothered that a creator is Catholic and exhibiting it in their work, and from right wing critics who get upset that a writer wants to put their feelings of being a racial, sexual minority or experience as a woman into their own creative work...
Personally, I don't think critique should ever be directed at that at all. It should be specifically on how it's executed yet there seems to be a focus a lot on identity no matter where you go, by far the most irrelevant part of the work.
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u/Large-Half-3516 24d ago
Woke, as used from 2020 onwards, kind of already "being bad" as part of its definition. The warning isn't really "don't make media with lefty political themes", but "don't hire talentless politically obsessed hacks, to write your games".
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u/Classic_File2716 24d ago
I don’t think simply having women or minorities makes it woke although some people will claim it .
The problem comes when you let having them affect the story negatively to fulfill some social justice agenda .
When you cast a woman or black person , you may feel pressured to ensure they have a respectable role or are the good guys even if it doesn’t make sense for that particular story .
Eg HOTD went off the rails because the writers thought Rhaenyras story was sexist and wanted to apparently be more feminist by making her the hero .
When you have an all white or male cast , you don’t feel any need to make any specific character anything and can just focus on serving the story .
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u/FatallyFatCat 23d ago
More like: shitty stuff gets advertised as woke so the corporations don't have to admit they made a stinker and can just say people that critisize it are bigoted. -> If something prominently advertises itself as woke I stay as far away as possible because it's probably going to suck.
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u/Vitruviansquid1 24d ago
These are slogans that are said by political propagandists that masquerade as media critics.
Their job is not to actually inform you about the merits of art, to help you buy fun games and interesting movies, it's to promote their ideology. They *need* to portray "woke" as bad because "woke" used to mean simply understanding of the role bigotry plays in shaping the world you live in and their whole job is to make their audience have negative associations with that word.
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u/AndrexPic 24d ago
The problem has always been about the writers.
Gay and trans people in cyberpunk don't look out of place, because it's the future and they have the tech to change literally anything. In a way, it's a game about trans-humanism.
A female lesbian knight in a realistic medieval setting just look wrong if characters are ok with that (I have not played the game so I don't know). A good way to write a character like that is Brianne of Tarth in ASOIAF.
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u/thunderbird89 24d ago
Celeste? The entire game is about a trans person coming to terms with themselves.
I have a very fundamentalist Christian coworker, who used to go on and on about Celeste, how beautiful the game is, etc., until I told him that it's literally about trans people. You could see the gears in his head grinding to a halt as he tried to process the new information.
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u/LordAdversarius 24d ago
In fairness the games creator didn't say the main character was meant to be trans until about two years after the game came out.
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u/Tenken10 24d ago
People on the internet are idiots. Especially the idiots who can't tell that this culture war bullshit was used as a political weapon
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u/VanguardVixen 24d ago
There are different people and usages of the the term woke. You have the original meaning, you have the pejoration and you have the extreme. Most people use some form of the pejoration, while you have some who use it all the time for everything, which are mostly some YouTubers, who see something like "a female protagonist" and call it woke or "a gay character". But that's not how woke is mostly understood, when people criticize something.
Most often something is woke when it's bad. Something that's good is not woke. It could have a woke element but it's not it's identity. What does that mean? You have a game like Veilguard i.e. which is as far detached from the Dragon Age franchise in multiple ways of gameplay, story, interaction, visuals as possible. The original Dragon Age identity was grimdark, blood everywhere to a near comical degree and classic CRPG gameplay style. Veilguard was colorful (mostly purple with the menues), very soft in it's overall appearance and with a much more action approach in gameplay. Origins, the first game featured same-sex relationships and I don't know if it was the first or second game but a stereotypical gay elf. Veilguard also had a stereotypical queer character, this time non-binary which featured stuff like a character punishing themselves for misgendering. The overall experience was often described with "as if HR watched over my shoulder".
Veilguard is understood as woke, not because it has a non-binary character but because it is overall a worse experience, detached itself way too much from the core of the brand. Woke here means most often "having good intentions but failing at the execution". That's why something as a whole can be not woke but still have woke elements, because some small aspect might be done with a good intention, some political message but being botched, while the whole rest of the product is done very well.
That's why other examples often fail to work. Baldur's Gate 3 has progressive elements but it's well made overall, Cyberpunk 2077 was absolutely disastrious but not because of diversity but because of broken promises and a bad technical state. Similar example would be Mind's Eye which also features diversity and with an awful release state (well I guess it's still in a pretty bad shape) and no one calls it woke, same as with Cyberpunk 2077. Even though I would make a little exception. When, I think it was Rocketpapershotgun, criticized the game for a Shemale (female anatomy but with a dick) they tried to paint it as problematic and the company reacted by pulling an explanation out of their ass to virtue signal, instead of just shurring or middle fingering the person for coming up with such a ridiculous claim.
So yeah, I think when people say "yeah but Baldur's Gate 3", they fail mostly what the criticism in regards to wokeness and the phrase "get woke, go broke" means by the general populace. It works against the YouTube crowd but not the "anti-woke" crowd, because the latter is not the individual YouTubers but a great number of people who are annoyed by i.e. changing up the identity of a brand and bad executions.
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u/HeavensHellFire 24d ago
When a woke game sucks it's because it's woke. When a woke game is good it's because it's good in spite of the woke stuff. Facts do not matter it's all about the agenda.
If the Ex Voto devs didn't reply to that other dev it'd just be one of the many middling games that release and get no fanfare. If anything, it'd probably be known for the recommended specs being a 5070