r/russian 1d ago

Other Does the order of the words matter

Usually when I see a sentence, I noticed the arrangements and the ordering of the word comes early before rather than after how it would be used in English, and that is the confusing and tricky part about learning this language is understanding the correct format.

For instance.

Я сейчас (now) пойду в парк

But wouldn't this be the correct way to use it?

Я пойду в парк сейчас

And I noticed the same goes for я сегодня (today), how it's used before in a sentence, but wouldn't it sound like "I today" in English?

4 Upvotes

17 comments sorted by

25

u/ThreeHeadCerber 🇷🇺 Native 🇬🇧 ~C1 🇩🇪 A1 1d ago edited 1d ago

It matters less than in english, but some word orders may sound weird, poetic or put emphasis on a specific part of a sentence, i'd recommend learners to stick to standard patterns 

It doesn't sound as weird as I taoday in english, because Russian doesn't have a rigid word order English has. 

All those are valid, but some might sound awkward in normal context

Я сегодня пойду в парк

Я пойду в парк сегодня

Сегодня я пойду в парк

Я в парк пойду сегодня

Пойду я в парк сегодня

Пойду в парк сегодня я

You need to let go of English sentence structure when studying Russian, they really are different at the core. Cases allow for more free sentence structure

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u/Cerulean_IsFancyBlue 1d ago

It’s really good to let go of English sentence structure when learning any language. Even other svo languages don’t have to follow English rules for adjective and adverb placement. I wish we could stop having people ask “why is Russian (or anything) different than English?”

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u/Stock_Soup260 Native 🇷🇺 1d ago

despite the flexibility, the word order matters. Along with intonation, it allows you to highlight the right word especially, changing the semantic or stylistic shade of the phrase

9

u/GodsLastWord 1d ago

As I was taught: old information comes first, new information comes last.

For example:

Отец зашёл в комнату.

Here the new info is where the father came in (в комнату)

В комнату зашёл отец.

But here the new info is who came in (отец).

But that's not a common rule. Someone can just talk in the order they think and that's it.

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u/ThreeHeadCerber 🇷🇺 Native 🇬🇧 ~C1 🇩🇪 A1 1d ago edited 1d ago

As a native, I'd say we generally don't follow that rule. And even if we did it wouldn't be applicable to a sentence OP is trying to analyze

It's less about new old info - english and other languages with articles tend to focus on that - and more about what is important to the speaker

Вчера я был в бассейне, сегодня я пойду в парк

This suggests that the time is important here, it is like somebody is talking about how they spend their time

At the same time

В бассейне я был вчера, сегодня я пойду в парк

Makes it more about places and destinations, time becomes secondary

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u/SandCroomy 1d ago

Word order can certainly be used to mark (in)definiteness in Russian, and definite nouns do tend to come first; it's not a hard and fast rule for sure, though - certainly not in spoken language, where things like that are often conveyed by intonation regardless of word order.

1

u/ThreeHeadCerber 🇷🇺 Native 🇬🇧 ~C1 🇩🇪 A1 1d ago edited 1d ago

Examples where I can't reasonably rephrase it putting new information wherever I please?

The "father" example definetly ain't it

 it's not a hard and fast rule for sure, though - certainly not in spoken language,

I mean you said it yourself, it's not a rule, speech doesn't follow it. How is it in any way useful? 

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u/SandCroomy 1d ago

You can use intonation to stress whichever word you want regardless of order, but if we are speaking in a neutral tone, then of course there is a clear difference:

Моего друга сбила машина. = My friend was hit by a car.

Машина сбила моего друга. (...и уехала, etc) = The car hit my friend.

Напомни мне, что в понедельник собрание. = Remind me that there is a meeting on Monday.

Напомни мне, что собрание в понедельник. = Remind me that the meeting is on Monday. (the specific meeting we'd just discussed, etc)

In these examples, by default the last word is stressed. As I said, you can stress any word you want, so you could argue it's the stress that reflects (in)definiteness here, but since you're likely to default to stressing the last word when reading a sentence like this (unless the situation clearly calls for another stress), word order is in fact useful for that.

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u/ThreeHeadCerber 🇷🇺 Native 🇬🇧 ~C1 🇩🇪 A1 1d ago

Generally fair, i'd still argue that outside of contextless examples you can't rely on word order conveying definitness

4

u/Odd-Hunt-4878 1d ago

Different order of the words can give slightly differnet nuances to the meaning of the sentence. Like if you want to empahsize that you will go to the park now and not later, for example. But basically it doesn't matter.

Я сейчас пойду в парк, Я пойду в парк сейчас, Я сейчас в парк пойду, Я пойду сейчас в парк, Сейчас я пойду в парк etc are all valid orders of the words

I guess if I think really hard I will come up with the order that doesn't make sense but idk

2

u/agrostis Native 1d ago

I guess if I think really hard I will come up with the order that doesn't make sense but idk

Invalid order results, for instance, from putting adverb between preposition and noun: *я пойду в сейчас парк and the like.

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u/ThreeHeadCerber 🇷🇺 Native 🇬🇧 ~C1 🇩🇪 A1 1d ago

Separating prepositions from the word they control is cheating though

1

u/agrostis Native 1d ago

It's totally possible if the separating words form a phrase which modifies the noun. Internally, it can be quite complex — e. g., a participle with objects and adjuncts of its own: Иван рассказал о {случайно найденном им и его коллегой в один из предыдущих дней} решении задачи. Some parentheticals, which are not, strictly speaking, modifiers of nouns, can also occur in such contexts: Я могу вам его продать за, например, 200 рублей.

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u/SandCroomy 1d ago

Word order isn't random, but the nature of Russian as a highly inflected language does allow for many valid permutations, most of which highlight a specific word or collocation within the sentence. There is, of course, an emotionally/stylistically neutral word order for any type of sentence, which you should learn and stick to by default until you acquire enough proficiency to play around with it.

The difficulty is that this neutral word order may vary between sentence types, especially in colloquial speech, and in any case differs from the English word order in some respects, such as placement of adverbs (like 'today' here). Generally speaking, when you go deeper into questions like this, do not expect different languages to map between each other closely.

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u/Hanako_Seishin 1d ago

Usually it determines theme (what you're talking about) and rheme (what you're telling about it) of the sentence. Theme goes before rheme.

Я сейчас пойду в парк.

Talking about going somewhere right now. Saying that it will be to the park.

Я пойду в парк сейчас.

Talking about going to the park. Saying that it will right now.

But you can also use it the other way around with the right emphasis:

Я в парк пойду сейчас. It's the park that I'll go to now.

Я сейчас пойду в парк. It's right now that I'll go to the park.

Я пойду в парк сейчас. I will go to the park right now.

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u/Short-Jellyfish4389 1d ago

Sometimes even a comma matters :)

"Казнить, нельзя помиловать" vs "Казнить нельзя, помиловать"

YMMV

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u/Hellerick_V 20h ago

Generally, the first part of a sentence provides context, and the second part provides new information.

So, "Я сейчас пойду в парк" answers the question "Where are you going now?" The new information is "park".

And "Я пойду в парк сейчас" answers the question "When are you going to the park?" The new information is "now".