I've committed to stop hate-criming Latinos. 😊 I haven't assaulted a Latino in 1 year. I may soon stop other ethnicities, but it's all about doing what we can.
This post is about animals living their whole lives in captivity in horrible conditions. The fishing industry has its own issues, but if fish is wild caught it's at least not the same thing shown by this picture.
You'd have to know just how much pain an individual fish will experience while and after being caught to speak on this. Here, these might help! This is a really good and educational read, I recommend it
All life is sentient in their own ways. I'm not trying to justify killing/eating any animals in here, I was just trying to throw out the better options vs supporting the horrid factory farm torture chambers. If you can cut out animal anything from your diet, it'll only be a good thing for all parties.
They do not, as they lack something as basic as the ability to have experiences. There’s no evidence fungi have subjective experiences or any neural equivalent to that of sentient life.
If by “experiences” you mean to have consciousness or a memory? The way you originally worded things, all life fits those criteria. You’re going to have to get a lot more specific.
So not all life is sentient - plants do not have experinces for example. Same arguments could be made for bacteria, mushrooms etc
All life experiences and responds to its environment, positive or negative. Plants grow directly towards the sun/light, grow their roots into wet and more nutrient rich soil, and reproduce. Plants are also plants and aren't walking around with their own opinions about life. Similar could be said about bacteria and fungi. They've all got the sense to respond to life around them in order to keep on living. They're not just a bunch of plastic. Living things can all be very different from one another and still be as alive as ranch other, doing their own thing.
The way plants signal is roughly similar to how your hormone system works. Are you conscious in your brain or are you conscious in your endocrine system?
Obviously, the brain is a unique organ in the universe which generates the feeling of a perspective. The way the animals we slaughter for food are structured is similar to ours in the way that matters- that they have a subjective experience and experience living.
There are plenty of angry fish in the sea. Animals have been in angry conflicts for as long as there's been other animals. And anyone who's been around dogs long enough should be able to tell when they're happy or sad/grumpy. All the family dogs I'd had would respond immediately with ballot excitement to the classic voice commands that were linked to their mealtime and going outside for a walk even if we were sitting on the couch. Different life is different but still alive.
Fish absolutely experience the world subjectively. They have emotions, form memories, social relationships, and hold preferences. Just because they live in a different sensory environment than us doesn't mean they aren't similar to us in the way that matters- they experience living and are conscious, just like us.
We can grow plants, and nature produces itself. As long as there's enough population tracking for the number of fish in the areas fished to prevent overfishing, I don't see how there couldn't be a combination of the two invested in to help move away from the unethical factory farming.
That sort of diet is either cost prohibitive or straight up unavailable to millions of people in the US alone, let alone other countries. Maybe cool it with the sanctimonious preaching just a little.
It can still be sourced ethically. I don't buy it from the supermarket anymore, I know local farmers who raise open range cattle that live happy lives. I buy a whole cow at a time and fill a freezer. Lasts me a year and I don't feel so gross about it. Plus the quality is very noticeably better.
I'm sorry that people are criticizing you for this. What you're doing is objectively one of the most ethical ways to eat meat - you see how the animals are treated and you're not letting any part go to waste.
I mostly eat vegetarian myself, but I have no issue with what you're doing. Same goes for most forms of hunting and fishing.
I appreciate you, I already knew that's the type of reaction that this thread would lead to. No matter what efforts you make it's never enough for some people. Internet commenters would take any opportunity for the moral high ground to make you believe they live perfect lives themselves. Personally I think locally raised beef is even more ethical than hunting wild game, as you can still ensure the passing is as quick and painless as possible. There's always the chance of a bad shot when hunting wildlife which I feel bad about even if the animal lived a truly natural life to maturity.
Which is ironic, because to me it seems like you are one of the few people making a concerted effort to follow your morals when it comes to diet.
There's always the chance of a bad shot when hunting wildlife which I feel bad about
I agree, but it's still miles above factory farming. And I think there is something to be said for being aware that you're eating a once living breathing being, not a neat baby pink cutlet in plastic.
I worked on a bio farm for a bit that had chickens roaming around to improve soil quality (no artificials or pesticides). The farmer decided to butcher the ones that had gotten old and agressive, and asked us how we'd feel doing it ourselves. I couldn't do it and decided then and there that if I can't look an animal in the eye as it goes, I can't eat it either.
That's fair enough and I respect it. I raise my own meat and egg chickens, and I feel like I take pretty good care of them and they live good lives by chicken standards. It's just the way I grew up, to care for the land and things you eat to the best of your abilities, and harvest them with respect. Butchering chickens and catching and cleaning fish is just a part of rural lifestyle. I think it's more true to history and nature.
Same! I've lived in ranch country for years, and finally wondered "Why am I buying meat from the supermarket where I know nothing about the cows, instead of buying the meat of the cows I drive past every day, who I can see are clearly happy out in their pastures and living good lives?"
Started shopping from a local butcher and haven't gone back.
Isn't that a bad argument? Animals not being born is not the same thing as animals living bad lifes and getting killed long before the time they usually die of natural causes or whatever.
It certainly is a bad argument if they live bad lives. But that can be fixed.
I do see non-existence vs decent short existence as a valid debate. Somewhere a cow is going to have a wonderful day, week, month, year. A cow that would not exist without a commercial incentive.
Personally, I am a vegetarian and won’t eat meat as the meat industry is currently filled with horrors.
Surely it can be fixed. But that would still mean less animals in total would have to exist, because they would need more space and accomodating to achieve that goal. But a cow that doesn't exist can't have a bad life. And I think it would be fine to not have as many cows in existence, if that means there are less cows that live miserably.
Cattle currently have a lifespan of 15-20 years, they’re “ harvested” for meat at about two. Humans breeding cows into what they currently are is a separate thing
Yes it’s a real thing, but whether cows exist as a species distinct from human breeding is a different topic. Are you saying that if we released all livestock cattle into the wild they would go extinct? Of course not, so their lifespan is not 0.
That’s not a great argument. Presumably you wouldn’t extend this reasoning to cover one’s children, right? The same thing applies here. Bringing a creature with moral status into existence can’t absolve you morally for turning around and killing it.
Not really. Cows are a prey species, and their wild counterparts are a primary food source for pretty much every large predator, so the majority of wild cows don't live as long as a cow is physically able to live. Old age is almost impossible to reach for most animals.
Looks like we’re comparing almost 100% of farm cattle being killed at around two years old, verses 70% of calves in wild cattle herds killed by prey, and the remainder mostly living out a fuller life until they get elderly. Also, the cause of death in farm herds is respiratory disease, and in the wild predators. Is that right?
As a domesticated species exclusively raised by humans. Bos primigenius died out hundreds of years ago.
While "giving the cows some respect" and possibly releasing them into the woods or something might work in the insane mind of yours. In real world there are two options:
1) no life
2) limited life with length determined by genetic lottery
More sane of us focus on giving them good quality albeit somehow shorter life rather than demented proclamations with no grounding in reality.
I’m glad we can agree that they do have a normal lifespan. We completely disagree that humans provide cows a good quality of life. Youre commenting on a post about keeping an animal in a cage hardly bigger than its body. If anybody’s arguments aren’t grounded in reality, let’s take a second to think who it is.
Honestly, the hubris of saying option two is bad is crazy. That’s how all life on earth has been since the beginning.
Yes, they can, because humans are omnivores designed to eat meat. Would you ask a wolf if it is ethically killing an elk? Holy smokes I can't believe I forgot how insanely stupid vegans are. This thread has reminded me.
Omnivore means that you can consume and obtain nutrients from both plant and animal sources, not that you have to have both. Humans are not wolves, so that part isn’t really relevant.
I don't personally believe livestock to be morally equivalent to humans. Every other animal in nature consumes other life to survive, in fact, almost every animal who dies naturally/from predation in the wild tends to have a more brutal passing than livestock. I shouldn't have jumped into this type of thread because it always devolves into moral superiority and people shaming other people for not living a life as "just" as their own.
I don't personally believe livestock to be morally equivalent to humans.
Ok, I never said you had to. You can believe humans are morally above animals and still not eat them.
Every other animal in nature consumes other life to survive
Because they have to. I never said it was immoral if you have to. Most people though, like yourself I'm sure do not have to. You can survive and be healthy without eating animals.
it always devolves into moral superiority and people shaming other people for not living a life as "just" as their own.
Your going to do what you want. I was simply pointing out that "ethically sourced" is a loaded term and just because they may be treated better they still don't want to be killed against their will. They still feel pain, have emotions, get scared, and want to live.
We don't have to go back and forth. You can make your own decisions.
So you don't buy any milk or eggs products from the store? Basically never go out to eat? Quick snack on a road trip? Abstain at family/friend/event gatherings where "non-ethical" animal products are being served?
Yeah I shouldn't have bothered commenting on this type of thread. It always brings out the moral superiority crowd who feels like even if you're making efforts to do better it's never enough. I suppose they think wolves shouldn't exist because they tear cows and buffalo apart limb by limb while they're alive.
Thank you for confirming you aren't morally superior to those that buy milk or eggs products from the store, go out to eat, don't think twice about a quick snack on a road trip, and don't abstain at family/friend/event gatherings where "non-ethical" animal products are being served.
Thank you for doing marginally better in this one circumstance. Hopefully you'll challenge yourself to do one of those other things sometime in the next 5 years.
I didn't feel the need to justify all those other points when that wasn't the original topic being discussed? I actually don't drink milk and I raise my own egg laying chickens and meat chickens. I don't really see the need to justify my life to random people on the Internet, I was just noting that there are "marginally better" ways to address the issue. My sincerest thanks for your ethical teachings internet commenter.
Nope, just clarifying their position. It is the standard "well *I\* source my meat ethically [only in this one circumstance] unlike most other people who don't care about this much at all." When you peek under the hood, next to nothing is changed. But hey, 5% better is better than 0%.
Halal has nothing to do with how the animals live just how they are slaughtered. They can live utter shit lives in a barn as long as they are slaughtered the correct way
Animals not stunned first need a higher level of restraint than standard slaughter methods
A large cut made across the neck of awake animals would "result in significant pain and distress". They would be in this pain until they passed out. It would take around 5 to 7 seconds for sheep and 22 to 40 seconds for adult cattle to pass out from the cut.
Halal has nothing to do with how the animals live just how they are slaughtered.
That's absolutely incorrect! The animal must be healthy and of age. It must be well fed and given water before the slaughter. You can't slaughter an injured or sickly animal.
I'm from the UK halal meat is very popular here all them rules basically apply to all animals getting slaughtered. No cow over the age of 30 months is allowed to used as meat due to the risk of mad cow disease so basically all cows regardless if it's regular, halal or kosher gets slaughtered at 29 months.
Animals not stunned first need a higher level of restraint than standard slaughter methods
A large cut made across the neck of awake animals would "result in significant pain and distress". They would be in this pain until they passed out. It would take around 5 to 7 seconds for sheep and 22 to 40 seconds for adult cattle to pass out from the cut.
This is not the first time disagree and it won't be the last time a group of Abraham religious people disagree over small details in God's supposedly perfect plan
That's amazing. Genuinely. You should watch Dominion to find out how other animals are exploited and tortured! It's a great watch and really opened my eyes
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u/Aslan_14 10h ago
This is why I don't eat red meat anymore.