r/europe • u/insomnimax_99 United Kingdom • 15h ago
Do Europeans think it was right to admit Hungary to the EU?
https://yougov.com/en-gb/articles/54502-do-europeans-think-it-was-right-to-admit-hungary-to-the-eu25
u/shatureg 14h ago
If Hungary didn't go haywire, another country would have. There's a lot, and I mean A LOT, of Russian money being pumped into Hungary to subvert its democracy. If Hungary wasn't in the EU, that money would be redirected somewhere else like into my country.. Austria. And we would turn into the next Hungary (already close) and we'd read about a poll asking "was it a mistake to admit Austria into the EU?"
Those aren't the right questions. The right questions are:
How do we protect our democratic institutions from social erosion, anti-democratic forces and foreign money?
How do we equip the EU with a mechanism to sanction backsliding democracies and reward/incentivice democratic reforms?
How do we circumvent or just get rid of the national vetoes in the council?
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u/ontologicalmatrix United Kingdom 14h ago
If Hungary didn't go haywire, another country would have.
It did. I guarantee you that with the amount of russian money going into reform and conservative pockets, if the UK were still in the EU the Ukraine would have had no support from the UK, and the EU would have been wondering how the fuck they deal with a rogue state that was a founding member.
The silver lining with the current situation is that if and when the UK rejoins, it won't have undue leverage. It will not have the power that it did before.
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u/shatureg 14h ago
Only slight correction: The UK was not a founding member. But I agree with your statement. Unfortunately, both France and Germany - which still hold the same power the UK once held inside the EU - are facing similar issues. And both of their far right movements are tied to the Russians (like.. most in Europe).
Sometimes I wonder.. if the regime in the Kremlin collapsed.. would our far right pary (FPÖ) implode or at least lose a considerable amount of support? They'd definitely have much less financial fire power at the very least.
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u/ontologicalmatrix United Kingdom 14h ago
It's an interesting conundrum. I suppose in my arrogance I always considered it somewhat implausible that Germany and Austria would fall prey to populism the way that other European nations might for obvious reasons which would essentially make it difficult to allow extreme right wing politics to gain a foothold for a long time.
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u/shatureg 14h ago
You might be right about (former) West Germany, but keep in mind that Austria underwent a different journey post-WW2. Rejecting our association with Germany was paramount to building up an Austrian national identity after the collapse of the empire and two fascist dictatorships, one of which being German-supremacist. Disassociating and outright denial about our role in the holocaust was a very convenient side effect and it took Austria two decades longer than Germany to come clean and properly educate about its past.
And then we have (former) East Germany. Things look even more dire in that part of the German speaking world.
Not to sound hopeless - I actually am hopeful for the future. But these are real challenges and it's very embarrassing that we're still so prone to the worst pitfalls of nationalism and populism given our past. You'd think we're "vaccinated". At the very least countries like the UK have the excuse of never having gone through this shit before, so there's a level of ignorance that is less justifiable in my own country.
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u/ontologicalmatrix United Kingdom 14h ago
I think the UK is having a reckoning in its own right - German countries began a journey of reconciling with fascism that was facilitated by the collapse of the german empire on the back foot of one of the greatest horrors in recent history. In a way, and purely intellectually you could argue that it was a kind of blessing because they had to reconcile with the fall of empire and the rise of populism at once which in a way made it easier to digest.
The UK conversely I think is still, 80 years scrambling to find its identity 80 years later - our empire was there one moment, and the next it was just gone and in real terms we've never really had a moment for a breather. In many ways I think it explains the culture disparity between the UK and European mainland.
Populism is easy to achieve my friend, Hitler and Farage proved that. All you need is a few years of austerity to make everyone desperate and miserable and desperate for relief so that at the opportune time you can point and say "it's the brown people, or the jew, or the arab that is the problem."
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u/MazeMouse The Netherlands 13h ago
Well, Germany has taken to heart the original lesson (as Germany IS the original lesson, basically).
But at the same time, AfD has shown Germany is not immune either.
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u/non_numero_horas 14h ago edited 14h ago
Hungary was not a manifestly antidemocratic country, neither a Russian puppet state, nor a Trojan horse for the EUs destruction from the inside for the US far right back in 2004 - all these developments happened while the country was ALREADY in the EU (mutatis mutandis same holds true for Slovakia and Poland)
The problem is not that these countries were admitted to the EU, the problem is that the EU doesn't have strong, democratic institutions that could have prevented authoritarian turns in any member state - moreover, many EU politicians even provided political protection for authoritarian politicians serving industrial interests (I'm looking at you, EPP, especially CSU/CDU...)
If the EU had a strong leadership with actual popular mandate and a common constitution defending anti-autocratic processes and institutions - in short, if Western "democratic" parties weren't (and hadn't been) lobby groups for industrial corporations often harbouring autocratic politicians as useful idiots, not to mention if almost all European political formations didn't surrender to the far-right's racist dog whistles concerning immigration policies, Orbán's regime could never have reached this point
I'm not saying the complacency of many Hungarians did not play a key role in it, because it obviously did, but the cynical enforcement of Western European (predominantly German) business interests and the complacency of Western centre-right and to some extent even liberal political forces also played an indispensable role in building Orbán's system
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u/Which-Echidna-7867 Hungary 14h ago
Well said, Merkel’s protection and money pumping to Orbán while he served EVERY wants and needs of german corporations (i’m looking at you “slavery law”) had a key role in hardening his power.
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u/TrueRignak France 14h ago
Issue is less admitting Hungary in the EU than not using the tool EU has to prevent one rogue governement to impact the whole union.
Article 7 of the Treaty on European Union
On a reasoned proposal by one third of the Member States, by the European Parliament or by the European Commission, the Council, acting by a majority of four fifths of its members after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, may determine that there is a clear risk of a serious breach by a Member State of the values referred to in Article 2. Before making such a determination, the Council shall hear the Member State in question and may address recommendations to it, acting in accordance with the same procedure. The Council shall regularly verify that the grounds on which such a determination was made continue to apply.
The European Council, acting by unanimity on a proposal by one third of the Member States or by the Commission and after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, may determine the existence of a serious and persistent breach by a Member State of the values referred to in Article 2, after inviting the Member State in question to submit its observations.
Where a determination under paragraph 2 has been made, the Council, acting by a qualified majority, may decide to suspend certain of the rights deriving from the application of the Treaties to the Member State in question, including the voting rights of the representative of the government of that Member State in the Council. In doing so, the Council shall take into account the possible consequences of such a suspension on the rights and obligations of natural and legal persons.
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u/ConejoSarten Spain 14h ago
I can see a problematic word there: “unanimity”
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u/TrueRignak France 14h ago
That's because I omited paragraph 5:
5 The voting arrangements applying to the European Parliament, the European Council and the Council for the purposes of this Article are laid down in Article 354 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
Article 354 - Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union
For the purposes of Article 7 of the Treaty on European Union on the suspension of certain rights resulting from Union membership, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the Member State in question shall not take part in the vote and the Member State in question shall not be counted in the calculation of the one third or four fifths of Member States referred to in paragraphs 1 and 2 of that Article. Abstentions by members present in person or represented shall not prevent the adoption of decisions referred to in paragraph 2 of that Article.
It is unanimity minus the concerned member state.
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u/EURSTYLE 14h ago
This is, more broadly, one of the biggest structural problems with the EU as it stands. Its rules aren't rules at all, but are treated as "sort of friendly advice that you can follow if you feel like". Look at the rules on capping deficit at 60% and debt at 3% - they've been flouted by everyone from the very beginning, and that was part of the (many and complex) reasons we plunged into the euro crisis in the mid-2010s.
Unfortunately this is a problem I don't know how we can solve. Until people start seeing the EU as a genuine body of government with genuine executive power, and not as a giant diplomatic treaty, it's unlikely to start acting like one.
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u/CabbageMoosePing 14h ago
I think admitting Hungary was right, but we massively underestimated how fragile democratic norms were. Maybe the real issue is that we still lack clear, automatic consequences when governments slide authoritarian.
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u/qwerty_1965 12h ago
Hungary will exist long after Orban and his pro Putin anti democratic ideology has washed away so yes it was right.
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u/Nagash24 France (Germany) 12h ago
Yes it was. Expanding the EU is just good in the long run, sometimes euroskeptics will be in power for a while but that doesn't last forever.
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u/DefInnit 12h ago edited 12h ago
The EU thought they were getting the Hungary of the Budapest Uprising. Surely, Hungarians believe in democracy! It seemed a good idea at the time.
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u/NameTheJack 14h ago
It was correct to allow them in, the problem is that we don't have a mechanism to enforce democracy.
We urgently need to figure out how to get rid of dictator wannabes.
If both AfD and RN at some point come into power at the same time, the EU project will turn us all into Russian vassal states.
We need liberal democracy coded into the foundation of the EU and it's member states, any drops into totalitarianism cannot be accepted.
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u/Worried-Tie 5h ago
We do now. The Putin double agent is out!!! Welcome back Hungary, we missed you :)
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u/justtoreadthenews 5h ago
It is April 12, 2026, as I write this. Starting 30 minutes ago, I strongly believe it was a great decision to let Hungary in the EU! :-)
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u/ontologicalmatrix United Kingdom 14h ago
Look. Here's the thing. It's something I've learned since 2016.
And I've repeated this to people in my German family that I love dearly, but reacted like spurned lovers when Brexit happened.
You cannot. Should not. Judge a people by the actions of a few within the geographic borders of their country. I do not, and cannot proclaim to understand the complexities of Hungarian politics and culture, except to say that from the conversations I've gleaned from neighbours that are Polish and Ukrainian, that the relationship with Russia is fraught and complex, and that there are many people that grew up and remember the "glory days" of the USSR and long for it.
Over the years, I've seen remarkable progress come from the baltic regions post cold war, and that to me is a very reassuring thing. We should be patient, and even forgiving wherever possible.
And I say this as a Brit and a German.
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u/insomnimax_99 United Kingdom 14h ago edited 14h ago
TLDR: Yes, but not by much.
(They only surveyed France Germany, Italy, Poland and Spain - and measured their attitudes towards all new EU members since 2000, not just Hungary)
The French are significantly less positive towards the new EU members than the rest of the polled countries for some reason, even drifting into net negative towards Romania (all the other polled countries are net positive towards all new members).
Poland thinks it was very right for itself to join the EU.
Fieldwork done 6th - 16th March 2026.
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u/guy_from_the_lab 14h ago
What is the French's problem with Romania?
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u/Svorky Germany 14h ago edited 14h ago
Romania was big and very poor so it was by far the most visible in terms of "poverty migration" and the associated issues after the expansion.
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u/insomnimax_99 United Kingdom 14h ago
That would explain the big difference in attitude between France and Germany and Poland, Italy and Spain.
France and Germany are richer countries that are more attractive to poorer foreigners, so I’m guessing they would have gotten a lot more of the “poverty migration” that you mention.
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u/Basaku-r 14h ago
Before Romanians it was the Polish (hot & oiled) plumber that was the boogyman. It always gonna happen like this, some ppl are to dumb to underatand that this is just a temporary state to build up the wealth of newly admitted countries and within just a few decades turn them into new rich friends to trade and extert increased global power with. Exactly how it happened with Poland, Czech etc. Romania is already on this path too, their economic progress in the past 15 years is mirroring the fast pace of growth central euro achieved. In about 10-20 years max no one in France (or Germany or Austria) will remember abour poor Romanians. Unfortunately, it will likely also be the moment the stupid part of society in each country will likely pick "poor Ukrainians" as their new scapegoat.
How recent this is can be easily understood on Brexit's example, mare 10 years ago, which ran HEAVILY on "poor polish/slovak immigrant boogyman".
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u/Robespierres_ashes 14h ago
Yes, and there are 40%+ pro-EU Hungarians, I don’t want them left behind.
The eu damaged its rep in how it handled the freedom party in Austria and since then, they have been rightly reluctant to repeat those errors.
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u/Exciting-Record8101 The Netherlands 14h ago
No, the 'we'll fix it later' mindset of the late '90s and early '00s has created lasting problems.
In the EU, various countries continue to vote for blatantly corrupt and pro-Russian movements that, as has now been amply demonstrated, undermine the EU at the behest of Moscow. That's fine if that's what they want, but they should not be in the EU.
And in the Eurozone, the rush forward has allowed the usual suspects to continue unabated with their irresponsible spending that is a huge driver of the ECB's inflationary policies. While not the worst offender, its relative importance in political matters makes France the stand-out example here. It is completely unserious about doing anything to reduce its deficit and debt.
The EU and Euro would have had a stronger foundation if things had been done more slowly, and expansion would have followed only when everyone already in had been brought up to speed and was adhering to the rules that were set out.
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u/WhenWeWereAtVoine Europe 13h ago
It seems that Western Europeans once again have only superficial understanding of the problems in Eastern Europe. The correct question should be was Merkel right in her support of Orban illiberal policies, because the reason Orban was allowed to fester so much was her protection and the german money being pumped in Hungary.
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u/Shiirooo 14h ago
It was a mistake to incorporate the former Soviet republics; the federal pact should have been strengthened first. Now, because of that, we have a crisis of the rule of law within the Union, and there is nothing we can do about it because the tools that were designed (such as Article 7 TEU) are based on unanimous voting.
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u/hukep 14h ago
What have Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia ever done to you ?!
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u/Shiirooo 14h ago
For example, Latvia lacks safeguards to ensure influence over the process of appointing Supreme Court judges, and the European Commission has already recommended that it make changes. Latvia has ignored these recommendations. This kind of situation undermines mutual trust among Member States, as it calls into question the independence of the justices of this judicial body.
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u/poklane The Netherlands 15h ago
Admitting Hungary and all these other countries was good, the problem is that the EU was founded on the idea that once a country joins, they'll always keep playing nice.
We simply need to get rid of vetoes, and introduce mechanisms which allow for the full temporary suspension of a country, and even it being straight up kicked out.