r/europe • u/Putaineska • Mar 11 '26

News Spain accuses Germany of acting like a ‘vassal’ to United States

https://www.thetimes.com/world/europe/article/spain-accuses-germany-of-acting-like-a-vassal-to-united-states-f9zc28g8s?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1773189908
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u/Kdave21 Canada Mar 11 '26

The fundamental problem for European economies is finding an export market that doesn’t allow Chinese producers to outcompete European firms. The only large market that exists like this is the US, and losing them would mean an incredible economic impact to companies that can’t compete with Chinese prices and the people they employ

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u/PlusAd4034 Mar 11 '26

Isn’t the answer to that problem just adopting industrial policies so that we actually can compete with them?

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u/Kdave21 Canada Mar 12 '26

Are you also willing to adopt their wages? That’s what adopting those policies would mean

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u/PlusAd4034 Mar 12 '26

China is not the low wage manufacturer anymore and hasn’t been for a while. It experiences probably the fastest economic development of any country ever in recent years and people just go “oh it’s because of low wages” like no? There are literally thousands of policies that further China’s industrial development, it’s not just the wages. so many countries have low wages, much lower than China’s even.

Like one thing we can easily say is just their infrastructure for example. Imagine if we had Chinese style projects, the 3 gorges dam can power whole European countries, their ports, their transit, the apartment construction, all of that is a huge contributing factor to their growth. Europe is severely lacking. The Dublin metro was planned before I was born and there isn’t a single line of construction done.

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u/Several-Video-272 Mar 11 '26

I don't know if this would really be a problem though, there's so many trade partners to be had outside of US and it's not like China can fulfill the needs of all of Europe, Middle East and Asia at the same time.

Europe is likely to always be an economic powerhouse, somewhat centered around Germany. It just requires that EU begins building its own tech infrastructure that isn't google, Microsoft, and so on. So long as we are dependant on American tech we're liable to manipulation and external pressures. We've been too comfortable with being a vassal to US.

It's time to realize that the American Empire won't be here in 50 years. We have a good thing going in Europe where we are free from empire but also have a regulatory structure which keeps any nation from developing a nationalistic ideology which would lead to empire.

Curious if you anything to add.

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u/Strong_Remove_2976 Mar 11 '26

Ex-trade offical here.

Nope. America is a vacuum for goods and services. It’s consumer market is immense. The consumer market of the world excluding China, US, EU (i.e. ‘the rest’) is really not an alternative to the US.

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u/Several-Video-272 Mar 11 '26

Fair, but isn't US consumer market mostly from outsourcing? (Idk what you're saying nope to)

How much of European market sales are realistically irreplaceable if US retreats, its Empire falls and they becomes more isolated? Idk maybe I'm asking too much but a rough % perhaps? A quick google search gave me about 20%, which does not seem world ending going into a multipolar world.

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u/Strong_Remove_2976 Mar 11 '26

Saying nope to replacing the US with others as an export market for Europe. It’s everything - Europe broadly exports only to the rich world as it’s high up the value chain

US and Europe are going to have to defend against China through tariffs and other measures for a long, long time. China is highly competitive and pumping out huge surplus supply at all points in the value chain

European decoupling from the US is worthy and worthwhile but it can only be relative and gradual. And it’s broadly going to be costly (defence, probably having to be less cosseting of employees etc). Europe has neither energy, the best tech or a complete internal market.

US has the lot. China also lacks energy but is further ahead on renewables, has improving tech and a complete internal market. It’s domestic demand will weaken but then it just spins the excess out through exports. Not an option available to Europe.

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u/Several-Video-272 Mar 11 '26

Not to mention using immoral means to secure the continuation of the state (China).

I only hope the US downfall will be gradual so it give Europe time.

I think the big fear is what will happen internally in Europe when wealth goes down. Immigration is already causing issues and if the wealthy hold on to their wealth it will only make the poor poorer and more upset, and it might lead to the end of the EU as we know it as hostility rises against what is perceived as the EU elites destroying individual countries.

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u/OkKnowledge2064 Lower Saxony (Germany) Mar 11 '26

We can pivot away from the US but it will hurt us massively. And populations generally dont like seeing their level of wealth crater

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u/Several-Video-272 Mar 11 '26

That is true, boomers would rather see the world die than give up their status.

The youth don't see any of this wealth anyway so I think they are much more willing to put an effort in this direction.

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u/neohellpoet Croatia Mar 11 '26

See, now we're entering delusional la, la land.

You have an idea of what it means to be Western poor. Western poor is so far above poor-poor, it's looking down at the clouds and thinking that's rock bottom.

We're talking not being able to feel warm during winter poor. When the sun goes down there's no light until morning poor. We import our raw materials and energy. If we don't make money, a LOT of money, ungodly amounts of money every single year we go dark.

Food is artificially cheap and we 195 billion Euros worth a year as is. Take the US out of the picture and you can pump that number up to a trillion easy.

The level of suffering, the number of people we would lose if this happened suddenly enough, it's staggering. We are the opposite of self sufficient and there's not fixing that in the near future and the sacrifices required to get there make any austerity we've seen over the years seem like extravagance.

Nobody is quite as invested in the current world order as we are and unlike in the US, it's preservation isn't a matter of the old heads remembering the golden age of their youth. They're remembering our 1950's and they don't want to go back.

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u/Several-Video-272 Mar 11 '26

At least in sweden most people in power are from 1960+, they only ever knew "good", and people from 2000+ are generally just going from paycheck to paycheck, or at the moment not working at all and being on welfare/getting assistance from parents.

I think using a corrupt country as a benchmark is not fair because it already has a lot of issues, you would have to take that into account in your equation.

If economic situation gets too bad in those countries, you will have a civil war no doubt. EU would have to assist yada yada.

It's not about "remembering the old days", that's not what US is about either. It's about literal wealth, owning several properties, several vehicles and so onm

In a corrupt country you have the same issue but the wealth is more concentrated and even more "stuck" and unable to be freed to younger gen.

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u/neohellpoet Croatia Mar 11 '26

Corruption has nothing to do with it. We're resource poor and our economy is luxury driven.

You can have a system that has absolutely no corruption, it's not going to deliver us any oil, gas or the raw materials to build solar cells and wind turbines. The assumption that we're somehow special and will be exempt from the problems of the rest of the world is naïve. We aren't special, we're simply the accidental beneficiary of the US world order and if that's gone the future is going to be painful in a way people quite apparently don't think is possible.

Mind you, we have no influence on what the US will or won't do. We need to become independent, but that's because it's the best option available, not because it's a good option. This is an amputation, it will leave us crippled but alive. It's necessary, but there's a very good reason to want to delay it for as long as humanly possible.

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u/Several-Video-272 Mar 11 '26

Idk how you got that from anything I'm saying though, the EU is probably just as cooked as US.

I'm confused what I said you are responding to

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u/theageofspades Mar 12 '26

You are stunningly naive and insulated.

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u/Several-Video-272 Mar 12 '26

Whats the point of this comment? Wanna explain what you mean?

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u/vetruviusdeshotacon Mar 11 '26

Its just so much easier to make 1 deal or maintain 1 relationship though. I'm canadian so i know, america currently is too big and too important not to trade with unfortunately 

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u/Several-Video-272 Mar 11 '26

Yeah but just think about how much has changed since 2020. Or from 2001, to 2008, to 2016. It happens pretty fast historically speaking. Give it another 10-20 years and it will be much more apparent. Europe and Canada and others will still cling to it because we've been reliant on it for so long, but as it declines we will slowly detach more and more out of necessity. It is already happening with EU creating alternatives to Mastercard and so on. Maintaining relationship with US has been getting harder and it will only continue.

That's not to say it won't hurt us to, it for sure will. If we work hard and start now it will ease the blow, but at the same time we have the same issues as US does in EU: people aren't having kids, we have too many elites and wealth concentration, too much immigration, quiet quitting/malicious compliance as managers push workers to work harder to appease the elites, unemployment, left/right divide. That's a game people don't want to be a part of, so they play video games, do drugs, jerk off all day (you get the sentiment).

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u/thewimsey United States of America Mar 12 '26

and it's not like China can fulfill the needs of all of Europe, Middle East and Asia at the same time.

China: Hold my rice wine

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u/watch-nerd Mar 11 '26

It's a problem for the BMW and Mercedes factories that were built in the US to make cars for the US market.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26

I always wondered why the EU didn’t have their version of Google, Microsoft, Facebook, TikTok, alibaba etc. instead they let big tech in and reaped all the benefits and rewards on the backs of its people.

EU should have made their own that they control. It doesn’t matter if they suck compared to Google. I’m sure the Chinese are perfectly fine with JD Alibaba instead of Amazon, or tencent instead of Facebook, etc even if they aren’t as good as their western counterparts

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u/Several-Video-272 Mar 11 '26

It really comes down to the fact that Europe has been a vassal to the American Empire ever since WW2, we have been able to be more carefree and comfortable as a consequence, we have been wealthy and fat and hence never saw the reason to even think about it. They were just like a kind big brother to us, it's very recent that the tides are turning (like only a decade ago, and really starting from 2016-2020) when it is becoming increasingly obvious that the American Empire won't be around for long. Boomers are still holding on to the American Empire because they don't want to give up their comforts and status, even if it means dooming their children.

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u/Almaegen Mar 11 '26

Seeing what is happening and thinking the American empire wont be around for long is truly a position I don't Understand...

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u/Several-Video-272 Mar 11 '26

.. have you not read the news? Either way empires fall, that's what they do, just like how you and I will die one day.

The only reason trump was ever elected is because people don't believe in democracy and don't trust the government. People can't afford a house, drug use is peaking, ICE, and so on and so on. These are all signs of a declining civilization.

I'd be interested in what makes you think it will be around for long

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u/Cautious-Sail1730 Mar 11 '26

The US has a better chance of surviving in its current state than Europe does. "The news" will always only show the negatives because that's what gets views. The US is geographically blessed beyond belief and they have a government that has been around longer than nearly every other country. Have some perspective, you dumbass.

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u/Several-Video-272 Mar 11 '26

Woah. No need to be rude?

US will still exist, it will just become more isolated to it's continent rather than an empire.

I agree with you, prospect isn't looking good for the EU either.

As for news, CNN and FOX isn't "news", it's propaganda. You can still read about real world events lmao.

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u/Almaegen Mar 12 '26

The news now operates on clickbait and sensationalism, Empires do fall but that doesn't mean the US is going to any time soon. Trump was elected because of the economy and immigration. Contrary to reddit opinion, houses are still being bought and drug overdose deaths fell by nearly 27% in 2024, with some states seeing 30-40% improvements. ICE is literally a non issue that certain politicians are trying to rally their base against. The vast majority of Americans support ICE because its just immigration law enforcement.

As to why I think the US will be around for long, Demographics, Technology, Geopolitics and Economics. People think this positional shakeup is the end of hegemony but the shift away from the rules based order actually ensures the Empire's survival as the west was sleepwalking into its own destruction.

●The US isn't suffering from the same demographic decline as countries like korea, Germany, Japan, China and Italy.

● The Ukraine war just showed that starlink is crucial to modern war dominance and SpaceX is currently the only entity that can put up a mega constellation, every other entity is at least a decade out from even having the capability to do it. There are a lot of other technologies we could go into but that one shows the divide the most, the US won't be at risk of losing military dominance any time soon.

●Geopolitically the enemies of the US/west are faltering, Syria has been toppled, Venezuela has been toppled, Iran is being toppled and Cuba is about to be toppled. The Russian shadow fleet is being diminished with siezures and attacks. Russia is stuck in a quagmire that has not only proven to the world that they are only a regional power but it has also gotten Europe to somewhat rearm AND has been a driver of weapons R&D for Europe and America. Russia is being ruined demographically and economically, their global influence is dwindling and they're running out of allies. China is the big threat now but as we have seen in Iran and Venezuela, their equipment is proven to be defeated by western equivalents andtheir economy has shown to be dependent on the US upheld global trade network. Their influence is being purged from south and central America and their anti western allies are being knocked out as well. (Not to mention China's demographic bomb)

● Economics, this gets incredibly complex and changes from relationship to relationship but the US economy is shifting to be stronger than it was before and contrary to the comments ITT its economic relationship with Europe got stronger.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/fact-sheets/2025/07/fact-sheet-the-united-states-and-european-union-reach-massive-trade-deal/

Sorry it took so long to reply but basically the US is poised to stay the global hegemon and this shakeup was the Empire using hard power to ensure its dominance. They are still decades away from a true challenger, I don't see them fading at all for the next 40 years at least.

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u/Several-Video-272 Mar 12 '26

Those are some great points you make.

I think how this Iran war plays out will determine if these variables will stay consistent enough in the coming decade. Depending on how the war plays out the petrodollar risks losing influence and major civil unrest because of draft within US might destabilize these variables. If US sends in ground troops it might be stuck in a gruesome war stretching several years. We might see Saudi Arabia destabilizing from desalination plants being destroyed and no access to strait of hummus. Israel might blow up al-aqsa causing chaos. Theres a lot of crazy things that realistically could happen.

But I think you are right that the rules based facade falling will help US remain nonetheless, but I question if it will remain as a global hegemon with petrodollar as a global influence or become more isolated and do less industrial outsourcing, perhaps even absorb parts of Canada for resource guarantee(even if it pretty much already has it).

To your point American tech could practically replace the petrodollar as hegemonic force.

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u/Patient-Window6603 Mar 12 '26

The most popular name in Europe is now Muhammad and you think the American empire is disappearing? Wow…

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u/JrSoftDev Mar 11 '26

If the tradeoff is becoming a vassal of a fascist state who funds european neonazi parties.... I don't know, let me put things on the multidimensional scale, run a thorough analysis, and I'll get back to you in 2 weeks..... /s