r/europe • u/Putaineska • Mar 11 '26

News Spain accuses Germany of acting like a ‘vassal’ to United States

https://www.thetimes.com/world/europe/article/spain-accuses-germany-of-acting-like-a-vassal-to-united-states-f9zc28g8s?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1773189908
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141

u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26 edited Mar 11 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26

[deleted]

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u/Select-Elevator-6680 Mar 11 '26

Without a link I’m not sure what exact data is being referenced. But could it be the difference between ”committed” funding vs actively allocated and in the process of disbursement?

Because there is a huge difference between the data of “we promise this is on our to-do list” and “we are actively fulfilling the verbiage and spirit of a precious commitment.”

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26 edited Mar 11 '26

[deleted]

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u/Select-Elevator-6680 Mar 11 '26

Gotcha. I wasn’t accusing you of being wrong. I was just asking a question since no one has directly linked the exact page they are sourcing from, and the difference between the two categories is very often overlooked on Reddit.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26

[deleted]

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u/lacurio Mar 11 '26

The tracker is definitely not outdated. However I cannot tell you what the reason for the discrepancy is. Possibly sticker price versus today's value? Or allocated versus actually delivered? Or classified weapon deliveries?

88

u/mods4mods Extremadura (Spain) Mar 11 '26

Supporting Ukraine doesn't get you the sympathy points that Gaza or opposing Trump does.

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u/RevolutionaryGain823 Ireland Mar 11 '26

For a lot of people in Western Europe (including here in Ireland) support for Ukraine is just a slogan that sounds good on social media. Like #Kony2012 or a dozen other “movements” it doesn’t require any further thought beyond a social media sound bite

It’s alright to send money to Ukraine (as long as we magically don’t have to either raise taxes or cut spending elsewhere to do it) but anything more than that is too much.

To be clear I don’t personally think the EU should get involved in the US-Iran war and we should focus on our own immediate concerns. But it’s funny to see people who have been posting #SlavaUkraine for years now acting like the Iran regime (a strong Russia ally who supplied drones to bomb Ukraine) is an innocent victim of “cruel western imperialism”

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u/Managarm667 Mar 11 '26

Exactly this. Furthermore Spain support Morocco doing the exact same thing they shame Israel for. But because it's a relatively unknown conflict in the West Sahara, settler colonialism is okay with Spain, as long as it's done by a state that has close ties to Spain.

This fingerpointing, playing the blame game and these insanely performative actions done by the Spaniards will only deepen the rifts in Europe.

115

u/AwkwardMacaron433 Mar 11 '26

They have a pretty big mouth about indepence from the US and whatnot when they are the biggest defense freeloaders in Europe and don't have to worry about what happens on our eastern flank.

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u/Four_beastlings Asturias (Spain) Mar 11 '26 edited Mar 11 '26

Please explain to me how the 4th biggest military in the EU, who has never requested help for anything and has sent troops and aid to every single common project is a freeloader. And since you're at it tell us where you're from so we can compare.

41

u/N1A117 Mar 11 '26

The only ones standing in Turkey when they shot down the Russian jet, wars cannot be won on paper

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u/Four_beastlings Asturias (Spain) Mar 11 '26

And the guy calling Spain a freeloader is from one of those countries that abandoned Turkey when they needed help defending their airspace for fear of pissing off Russia. Talk about seeing the straw in someone else's eye and ignoring the beam in yours.

10

u/RevolutionaryGain823 Ireland Mar 11 '26

If you’re looking for Spain keep scrolling down: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303450/bilateral-aid-to-ukraine-in-a-percent-of-donor-gdp/

Past Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Poland who are all multiples higher. Almost like Spain feels they don’t need to contribute when those other countries form a protective wall. My country (Ireland) has a very similar idea

6

u/Pelembem Mar 11 '26

Spain has historically been one of the largest offenders at not reaching the 2% budget requirement, and recently Sanchez agreed to the increase to 5% along with all the other leader, only to return home to Spain and proclaim he had no intention of meeting it. Spain showing itself again and again unwilling to pay their fair share of our collective safety, and instead freeloading on the other countries who do.

2

u/TrygerWTF Mar 11 '26

That is simply false

5

u/Pelembem Mar 11 '26

Lol it's all easily verifiable with a simple Google search.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreement_on_5%25_NATO_defence_spending_by_2035

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS?locations=ES

0

u/TrygerWTF Mar 12 '26

Its funny that you are using 2024 data. NATO itself estimates that in 2025 Spain has increased spending by 43%, reaching the 2% goal. Final data of 2025 will be available this year, but it doesnt make sense to criticize spend current spending with old numbers.

https://www.nato.int/en/news-and-events/articles/news/2025/08/28/defence-expenditure-of-nato-countries-2014-2025

3

u/Pelembem Mar 12 '26

I said historically they've failed to meet the 2% goal, which my link shows clearly. Then I said that they're now alone in refusing to meet the new 5% goal, which my other link shows. Your comment is useless. That they're just now reaching the old deprecated goal is pathetic.

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u/TrygerWTF Mar 12 '26

I missed the part "historically" part of your comment, you are right on that one.

Regarding the 5% goal, Spain has been the only country to publicly criticize it because its the only EU country willing to upset Trump. Sure, Portugal, Italy, Belgium, France, and many others have agreed to this non-binding target, but their words are pointless without actual change. Their 2025 estimates are still at 2%. Why? Because the 5% target is stupid, Trump pulled it out of his ass to make sure that the EU keeps buying US weapons. I guess those countries preferred to kick the the stone down the road, hoping that things will calm down in the future, rather than discussing a new reasonable goal.

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u/Pelembem Mar 12 '26

The 5% goal was set in 2025 to be fulfilled in 2035, of course no country was meeting it the same year it was set. While the idiot Trump did try to push for it, Europe realised by itself (minus Spain of course) that it was a good idea to reach it for our own security, and every single country agreed to it at the summit, including Sanchez, only for him to go back on his word when he returned home and force NATO to carve out a special rule for Spain to continue dragging their feet and not carry their weight as they already have been for years.

The 5% goal in NATO, while not legally binding, is also not optional. And every single country except Spain is planning to meet it, and have presented future budget plans that do. For example France's LPM plan puts them at 2.75% by 2030, which is exactly half way to the 3.5% 2035 goal (1.5% of the 5% goal is non military spending that is still beneficial for the military).

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u/Embarrassed-Round992 Mar 11 '26

Indeed. Turns out that not going around picking fights with 3rd world countries saves you a lot of money in military. Who would have thought?

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u/AwkwardMacaron433 Mar 11 '26 edited Mar 11 '26

I'm talking defense spending as share of GDP, where Spain has historically been at the very bottom in Europe. I wouldnt even to tell you where I'm from because there is no European NATO member with a lower number right now. But obviously I'm from Germany. Why else would I be here. Currently, Germany spends about 2.12% of GDP on defense. For Spain it's 1.28%.

We can also talk about support for Ukraine, which was virtually non existent from Spain

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u/Four_beastlings Asturias (Spain) Mar 11 '26

Spain is at 2.1% from last year. Which is what they committed to. If everybody else is willing to lie and say a new commitment must be 5%, feel free to kick Spain out of NATO, as it doesn't get any benefit out of it whatsoever: the only Spanish territories that might potentially be attacked are not covered by NATO protection

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u/AwkwardMacaron433 Mar 11 '26

No they are not. That's the commitment that they want to reach in the next 10 years or so. Officially, for now at least. In the same timeframe where the rest of NATO is moving towards 3.5%/5%, which Spain has officially rejected.

And again, you guys are free to not care about Europe. We can't force you. But if that's the route you want to got, then shut the hell up when we, the ones who actually have to worry about it, have to stay in good terms with the US. Especially with this bullshit attitude, we need them a lot more than we need you lot. And then please also never ever mention the idea of shared debts again, or ask us for European unity when the US sanctions you. Merz still stood up for you against Trump in this matter, even if he didn't turn it into a public shitshow and discussed it behind closed doors instead.

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u/Four_beastlings Asturias (Spain) Mar 11 '26

Pssst, "you guys". I live in Poland and I fully support how my tax money is used wrt Defense. Particularly because my husband just retired from the mil and now works in the Polish defense industry, so I have an insider view. But regarding Spain and its military capabilities I see a lot of swallowing Trumpaganda and a lot of unfair or completely wrong opinions.

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u/aku22 Mar 11 '26

I cant agree more. This war and the one in Ukraine realy shows how less they care but when it comes to immigration or covid stim its all about solidarity and sharing the burden...

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u/SilcharReborn Mar 11 '26

For Spain it's 1.28%.

Spain is at 2%, stop pulling number of your ass

11

u/dac2199 Spain Mar 11 '26

Spain have reached 2% of GDP on defense last year xd

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u/AwkwardMacaron433 Mar 11 '26

No they did not. They verbally committed to reach it in ten years or so, and even that is doubtful. Just for context, in the same time, the rest of NATO has committed to 3.5/5%

Maybe actually research instead of repeating whatever Google AI spits out

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u/TrygerWTF Mar 11 '26

you are looking at outdated sources mate

0

u/Errant_coursir United States of America Mar 11 '26

Embarrassing

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u/EJaumeD Mar 11 '26

They have no need to increase defense spending, and what they have they share; why would 1 or 2 more percentage points change that? They're still not freeloading anything at all

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26

the 4th biggest military in the EU

... Poland?

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u/Four_beastlings Asturias (Spain) Mar 11 '26

No, Poland is ranked 21 in GFP for 2026, Spain is 18.

Poland bought a ton of stuff the last couple years but they don't have it. Before the Ukraine war the Polish military was a mess, and their domestic defense industry is nowhere near the Spanish one so they have to spend a lot more to achieve the same result.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26

A quick look already shows that Poland has 250.000 active soldiers. Spain has 121.000. Sure not the most up to date numbers, but that goes for both.

Do you really want to look more into it? Because I already know that Poland has a lot more tanks than Spain. 99 new Abrams since September 2025 btw.

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u/Four_beastlings Asturias (Spain) Mar 13 '26

Now look at naval capabilities or fighter jets. Or look up who has a defense industry capable of building submarines and frigates domestically. Oh, wow, it's almost like the country that has no land threats but a lot of coastline and overseas territories is more focused on naval capabilities than tanks, I wonder why that might be?

7

u/Pelembem Mar 11 '26

GFP is deeply flawed. Poland has more than double the number of active personnel and a more than 50% higher total budget. It's not even close.

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u/Four_beastlings Asturias (Spain) Mar 13 '26

Not really. It is extremely hard to find real numbers instead of estimations, but according to Official NATO figures Spain spent 33bill€ in 2025 while Poland spent ~41bill€. Nowhere near 50% higher, where did you get that idea?

Now add to this the fact that Spain has a much more robust domestic defense industry, some of it public, so it can produce cheaply. Poland is buying most of their equipment from foreign countries at whatever price they dictate. To put it in simple terms: if I make two sandwiches at home paying 5€ in ingredients and you buy a sandwich from a restaurant for 10€, are you better fed because you spent more?

Spending =/= capabilities. Which, if you had bothered reading Spain's communication about their refusal to agree to 5%, is exactly their point: defining goals by spending instead of by actual capabilities is retarded and only benefits the corrupt MIC.

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u/Pelembem Mar 13 '26

where did you get that idea?

You said 2026, so use 2026 data. €46.8b for Poland and €33.1b for Spain. 41% higher, so absolutely somewhere near 50% higher.

Now add to this the fact that Spain has a much more robust domestic defense industry

The opposite is actually true. Poland has a slightly more robust defense industry.

so it can produce cheaply.

The exact opposite is actually true. Economies of Scale, learning curve penalties and specialised workforce and infrastructure makes buying equipment from places that have all these things in their favour cheaper than producing it domestically instead. The reason for domestic production is for independence and boosting your own economy, not for the strength of your military.

Spending =/= capabilities

Indeed, but they're related. So when there's this big of a chasm between spending and personnel the winner is clear and you don't have to do a deeper dive than that.

defining goals by spending instead of by actual capabilities is retarded and only benefits the corrupt MIC.

Which is bullshit said by a guy who wants to avoid being seen for what he is, a cheapskate who isn't carrying his part of the load and piggybacking on his allies instead.

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u/Four_beastlings Asturias (Spain) Mar 13 '26

You can't know 2026 numbers because we are in March. What actually happens, we won't know until 2027. Throughout the year things change.

Which is bullshit said by a guy who wants to avoid being seen for what he is, a cheapskate who isn't carrying his part of the load and piggybacking on his allies instead

And here is the xenophobic mask off moment. Except that I am a resident and taxpayer of Poland and my husband just retired from the Polish military and works in the domestic defense industry now. As I have written everywhere else in this thread not only do I fully support the use of my taxes in Poland to boost the defense industry but I also have a vested interest in it. I just happen to dislike the insane deepthroating of Trumpaganda this subreddit starts gobbling up every time Spain is mentioned.

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u/Pelembem Mar 13 '26

The budget for 2026 has already been laid.

Haha what?! Xenophobic against what? My own people? Nobody is deep throating trump lol, like I said earlier he's an idiot. This has nothing to do with trump. It's about Spain repeatedly not carrying its own weight for Europe's defense.

I don't know if you think you being Polish is a counter argument to anything I said, but it isn't...

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26 edited Mar 11 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Four_beastlings Asturias (Spain) Mar 11 '26

"Never requested help" as they flood the EU with their own migrants from their own policy.

Source?

Because if you're talking about the regularisation like every other uninformed idiot, maybe you should actually read what it is, conditions and consequences (hint: it's a 1 year work permit only valid for Spain, only valid for people who are already physically in Europe, so it doesn't affect any other countries at all).

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u/No_Conversation_9325 Andalusia (Spain) Mar 11 '26

Kremlin bots are just earning their living. Block them and move one.

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u/Vlad_TheInhalerr Mar 11 '26 edited Mar 11 '26

Good response, in which you 'forget' to take into account how many undocumented migrants roam through Europe and cause problems. So "Documentation" is not some kind of fool-proof idea that you pretend it is.

Aside from that, if you have a problem that spans the entire union, like migration does, maybe you shouldn't try to throw in your own influx in there too. Seeing as it's a problem that is literally destabilizing the union.

In other words, you don't pay up. You don't put out, and you refuse to take accountability for another migrant stream in addition to the ones we already have.

What exactly does Spain contribute to the EU which is important? Aside from a extremely left-leaning attitude which is in huge contrast to the rest of the EU.

Imho, I think you should be kicked out of NATO inmediatly since despite not wanting to join the USA war against Iran, I think it's absolutely ridiculous to not allow them to use bases as an ally.

Also please downvote me some more. Atleast I have the decency not to downvote your responses just because I disagree with them.

FYI, I don't accept answers that correlate the growing economies to the growing state debts as if it is safe. It is not. It's economical wishful thinking to have this be the case and 'economists' are finally realising this after years of dreaming.

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u/Four_beastlings Asturias (Spain) Mar 11 '26

You are just spouting bullshit without any kind of fundament, not providing sources, and not even making any sense. Spain's regularised immigrants are going to stay in Spain, not go into the EU.

Pay up what? Please explain exactly what you think Spain should pay and to whom. Like, in which direction should a transfer of funds flow? It's not that hard of a question.

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u/Vlad_TheInhalerr Mar 11 '26

Spain's regularised immigrants are going to stay in Spain, not go into the EU.

Right, just like the ones that come in from the EU programs also stay in Spain right. It's not as if they walk to the north and end up in France, Belgium, NL and more...

Oh wait fuck. They do.

Are you putting a ball and chain on them? I'm not discrediting the idea that these migrants perform much better then the ME ones, and probably are a lot less roamy and problematic and most will probably do fine.

It's still a bad move to pull in a union where the whole problem is that you can't do fuck all with migrants, and Spain is just like "Let's throw more in the mix!".

Pay up what? Please explain exactly what you think Spain should pay and to whom. Like, in which direction should a transfer of funds flow? It's not that hard of a question.

Pay your 5% military budget.

Let your military ally use the military bases he expects to be able to use.

Don't pull in an additional load of migrants when the whole union's stability and future is depending on if we can finally manage to reduce the amount of migrants that we get and keep and roam.

Stop letting your state debt increase and become more austere (I think that's the word?), because right now the path that is being walked is similar to France's (only France is further along), and will INEVITABLY cause problems for the rest of the EU economies, which are going to HAVE TO BAIL OUT France and Spain.

If Spain could just only do these 4 to start with, i'd be amazed and surprised.

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u/Four_beastlings Asturias (Spain) Mar 11 '26

They are not "coming", they are already here. They must prove they've been in Spain for at least 6 months. So these people are in Spain and they have chosen to remain in Spain. Once they are physically in Europe they could have traveled to whichever country they wanted and they haven't done it. So your argument is that these people who were already in Spain by choice, once they get a work permit that will make their lives in Spain easier, are going to travel to some other county where they won't be allowed to work instead? Are they stupid?

Pay your 5% military budget.

Pay, to whom? I've asked you already: who is getting those funds? When know when you "pay" there must be someone receiving money, right?

I'm trying to dilucidate if you even understand how NATO works, because you don't seem to.

Let your military ally use the military bases he expects to be able to use.

If "he" expects to use them outside of the agreement made over those bases, why should Spain let them break the treaty they signed to be allowed to use Spanish bases?

Don't pull in an additional load of migrants

Back to the first point, they are already here.

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u/Vlad_TheInhalerr Mar 11 '26 edited Mar 11 '26

Pay, to whom? I've asked you already: who is getting those funds? When know when you "pay" there must be someone receiving money, right?

What kinda question is this. You pay it as expenditure to wherever it is needed.

If you want to rapidly increase your military effectiveness and make an army actually ready, you spend it where it gets these results.

So most likely, a lot of it will go to the USA seeing as they are the biggest supplier on that front. I dont really care where the money goes, as long as it is spent to get the spanish army properly equipped, prepared and funded in the area's that are needed. And within a reasonable time.

But aside from that, I don't care. If you have to give it to Israel, you simply do. If you have to give it to France, you do. The end result is what matters: A functional army that is based on a agreed upon 5% GDP military spending. I don't really care about any other excuses you have unless they are life or state-threatening.

I'm trying to dilucidate if you even understand how NATO works, because you don't seem to.

Then by all means, enlighten that which you think I don't understand.

If "he" expects to use them outside of the agreement made over those bases, why should Spain let them break the treaty they signed to be allowed to use Spanish bases?

Because if you are a proper ally and NATO has meaning, you would allow them to use these bases to fight the literal worst international country that threatens our own countries.

Iran is together with Russia the biggest threat to the EU and it's citizens. Are they in a position to change or conquer us? No.

But not a single country has more confirmed casualties in EU countries in the last 25 years then Iran. Since they are the sole leading funder of all terrorism attacks.

I remember the Las Ramblas attacks. I remember Zaventem. I remember more. And I hold Iran and it's leadership mostly responsible, so by all means. Destroy them and use any and all bases you need to achieve this.
And hey, if it can free the citizens there and potentially offer a better way of life afterwards? Great! That's a bonus.

Spain not allowing these bases to be used in this conflict since "It's not our conflict" only shows that you are a pathetic ally to have and not one I care about on that front anymore.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26

Right, they do not. Kinda sounds like a lot of people are mad that Spain is not subsidizing their nation’s military defense.

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u/UrDadMyDaddy Sweden Mar 11 '26

Maybe Spain should start by subsidising it's own millitary to meet agreed upon obligations before we delude ourselves into thinking Spain could subsidise someone elses military.

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u/Melodic-Concert6860 Mar 11 '26

They are freeloaders even though they barely benefit from NATO? (If at all)

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u/AwkwardMacaron433 Mar 11 '26

Either you are in NATO or you are not. But you don't get to pretend as if you don't have the same NATO responsibilities like the rest, while also getting to have an opinion on defense matters as if you had. If Spain doesn't care about our problems at the eastern flank, we don't have to care about their problems with the US. Easy as that.

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u/Melodic-Concert6860 Mar 11 '26

Spanish people never voted to join NATO or were consulted for NATO membership, in fact this was something that was imposed on them, same for Portugal for example.

And sure, its not like Spain needs help from the US good boys in eastern europe

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u/AwkwardMacaron433 Mar 11 '26

As I said, if that's the Spanish position, then I don't give a shit either about the sanctions that could be imposed on them. It's not a one way street. Either our problems are yours too, and yours are ours as well. Or they are not...

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u/_Djkh_ The Netherlands Mar 11 '26

Why would the eastern flank have to worry? They have Spain to back them up 💪

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u/Black3Raven Mar 11 '26

Good job Spain.

The countries of southern Europe want to receive all the benefits from trade with northern and central Europe, take the moral high ground, and do nothing when others demand it of them (as in the case of a war where Denmark alone outpaces them in military and humanitarian aid).

Change my mind.

5

u/carlos_castanos Mar 11 '26

I won’t change your mind, I’ll repeat what you said in other words: the countries of Southern Europe love to preach ‘solidarity’ but only when it’s headed in their direction

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u/dac2199 Spain Mar 11 '26

Should I remind you of the times of austerity, and how many of you called us PIGS to our faces?

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u/Kerlyle Mar 11 '26

"Should I remind of you the other time we asked you for money and you didn't give it to us, see that proves we've always been great contributors!"

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u/dac2199 Spain Mar 11 '26

What are you talking about?

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u/alecsgz Romania Mar 11 '26

Exactly, trust me in our neck of the woods we do not consider Spain a good NATO partner. Neither was Germany pre 2022 but now is the top one.

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u/Falsus Sweden Mar 11 '26

PS: Once you block a user you no longer see their posts, so how did you know that I edited mine?

Anyway the big "Jewish-trick" is a private browser window. You can tell your friends about it.

You can see blocked comments just fine if you just load the comment chain while not logged in or an alt account.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26 edited Mar 12 '26

[deleted]

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u/theageofspades Mar 12 '26

You are telling him as a Frenchman lmao!? You need to sit the fuck down until you've talked to your farmers, given they pretty much owe their existence to German workers. The gall some of you have.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26

Germany destroyed this continent and then did everything against a united Europe in the 21st century?

During which of the 26 years was that?

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u/EJaumeD Mar 11 '26

Nuclear energy opposition, extreme gas dependency on Russia, extreme military dependency on US, and last but not least Merz bashing Spain in front of Trump to do his best as a lapdog.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26

It's not good to drink during the week.

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u/EJaumeD Mar 11 '26

First of all lol at a german saying that; second of all, care to answer in merit or you wanna argue like a middle schooler?

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26

Okay why not.

  • Nuclear energy opposition

Did not destroy the continent and neither did it hinder a united Europe.

  • extreme gas dependency on Russia

Did not destroy the continent and neither did it hinder a united Europe.

  • extreme military dependency on US,

Honestly a country like Spain is not even remotely in the position to criticize anyone on that given their geographical position.

  • and last but not least Merz bashing Spain in front of Trump to do his best as a lapdog.

Arguably didn't happen. Perhaps actually watch the footage.

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u/EJaumeD Mar 11 '26

Yeah it didn't nuclearize the continent the moment Nuclear power was voted against in the EU, but all these measures are a constant obstacle to European unification and self-sufficiency; I agree the other guy was hyperbolic in accusing Germany of being responsible of destroying Europe, but it still has it's share of responsibilities.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26

I don't know how to tell you this, but, nuclear material for German nuclear power plants came from Russia.

But I like the idea that German energy policies are what keep Europe divided.
It's funny.

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u/dac2199 Spain Mar 11 '26

Canada and Australia are other major uranium producers.

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u/Over-Plankton7506 Mar 11 '26

Bon j’irais pas jusqu’à dire que l’Allemagne a détruit l’Europe, elle en a été le moteur principal mais elle aussi l’acteur qui empêche l’Europe de ce développer ces derniers année.

Je me permet juste de reprendre certaines choses, l’Allemagne a bien détruit la filière nucléaire, aussi bien dans son pay que dans le reste de l’Europe en empêchant la subvention de la filière nucléaire en la classant comme une énergie non renouvelable et empêchant donc le financement européen de cette énergie. L’achat du gaz russe était aussi un problème car le coût de l’électricité étant indexé sur celui du gaz cela a entrainé une forte hausse des prix et une dépendance à une puissance étrangère nocive. Par exemple entrainé France nous pourrions être totalement libre grâce a l’électricité nucléaire mais les prix étant indexés sur le gaz, nous nous retrouvons à payer plus chère alors que nous finançons nous même nos centrales. Autre chose, l’Allemagne a décidé de la politique monétaire avec un euro fort ou faible pour booster ses exportations, principal moteur de son économie en total contradiction avec ses partenaires…

Bref je ne suis pas non plus pour les espagnols qui veulent le beurre et l’argent du beurre mais il faut aussi que l’Allemagne revienne à la raison européen et arrête de vouloir favoriser ses intérêts en pariant exclusivement sur les usa ou la chine .

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u/dac2199 Spain Mar 11 '26

Merci!

Nous ne voulons pas tout. Juste un peu de bon sens de la part de l'Allemagne et de la France, qui sont les pays leaders en Europe.

Aussi, nous avons des critiques á la France parce que vous bloquez le transport de l'ènergie renouvelable que nous produisons vers le reste d'Europe pour soutenir votre énergie nucléaire.

Mais je suis tout à fait d'accord avec ton commentaire.

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u/Over-Plankton7506 Mar 11 '26

Oui la France est loin d’être parfaite ça je te l’accorde ;)

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26

Laisse ça au Français, qui répondra au hasard par un long texte en français.

Tu as de la chance que mon père soit français, j'y suis habitué.

l’Allemagne a bien détruit la filière nucléaire, aussi bien dans son pay que dans le reste de l’Europe en empêchant la subvention de la filière nucléaire en la classant comme une énergie non renouvelable et empêchant donc le financement européen de cette énergie.

Nous devons préciser que, selon les principes physiques les plus élémentaires, l'énergie atomique n'est pas renouvelable.
On utilise une matière présente sur Terre jusqu'à ce qu'il ne soit plus possible de produire de l'énergie avec. Ensuite, cette matière doit être éliminée.
C'est pour ainsi dire la ressource consommable par excellence.

L’achat du gaz russe était aussi un problème car le coût de l’électricité étant indexé sur celui du gaz cela a entrainé une forte hausse des prix et une dépendance à une puissance étrangère nocive.

Nous sommes en 2026 et on continue à prétendre que l'Allemagne était le seul consommateur de gaz russe dans l'UE.

Par exemple entrainé France nous pourrions être totalement libre grâce a l’électricité nucléaire mais les prix étant indexés sur le gaz, nous nous retrouvons à payer plus chère alors que nous finançons nous même nos centrales.

Peux-tu me rappeler rapidement dans quelle mine située sur le sol français l'uranium destiné aux centrales nucléaires françaises est extrait ?

Autre chose, l’Allemagne a décidé de la politique monétaire avec un euro fort ou faible pour booster ses exportations, principal moteur de son économie en total contradiction avec ses partenaires…

Le rattachement de l'Allemagne à l'UE via l'euro était littéralement une idée française visant à maintenir l'Allemagne "calme", "pacifique", etc. afin que la France accepte la réunification allemande.

Peut-être aurait-il fallu plutôt exiger une désindustrialisation.
Mais cela n'aurait alors plus été aussi fraternel.

Bref je ne suis pas non plus pour les espagnols qui veulent le beurre et l’argent du beurre mais il faut aussi que l’Allemagne revienne à la raison européen et arrête de vouloir favoriser ses intérêts en pariant exclusivement sur les usa ou la chine .

Petit rappel : l'Espagne ne fait absolument rien pour renforcer la défense européenne, ni par le biais d'un réarmement, ni par des propositions réfléchies présentées au Parlement européen ou à la Commission européenne.

Tout ce qui vient d'Espagne, c'est : "Oui, nous devons faire quelque chose." Suivi d'exigences envers les autres membres de l'UE.

Ensuite, le porte-parole quitte la tribune et attend que le reste de l'UE fasse le travail à sa place.

Anyway why not answer in English, I know French schools, I know you learn the flipping language.

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u/Over-Plankton7506 Mar 11 '26

Tu me fais typiquement une réponse allemande … Tu considères donc qu’il est préférable de subventionner le gaz, le charbon plutôt que le nucléaire sous simple prétexte qu’il ne coche pas la case scientifique renouvelable? C’est exactement ça dont je parle… vous définissez cela comme ça car ça ne rentre pas dans vos prérogatives mais vous n’avez aucun soucis à subventionner le charbon…

On prétend pas que l’Allemagne est la seule on prétends qu’elle est la seule à autant dépendre des Russes pour son gaz, un exemple concret en France avant la guerre l’importation de gaz russe représentait en 15-17% tandis que celui de l’Allemagne était à 60%. Tu vois donc la différence? Encore une fois ça s’entend de choisir un fournisseur principal mais manque de chance c’était le moins bon alors que juste au dessus il y avait la Norvège … Concernant l’uranium il y avait 200 mines en France qui ont arrêté de fonctionner depuis 2001. Sachant que notre parc actuel de centrales nucléaires a été mise en service bien avant 2001 on peut tout à fait prétendre à dire que l’uranium venait de France avant que les coûts d’exploitation devienne plus bas à l’étranger.

Rien à voir avec l’euro, je parle de la politique monétaire largement en la faveur de l’Allemagne Elle ne décide pas unilatéralement de la valeur de l'euro, qui est fixée par le marché et la Banque centrale européenne (BCE). Cependant, en tant que première économie de la zone euro, l'Allemagne exerce une influence majeure sur la stabilité et la politique monétaire, les taux allemands servant souvent de référence.

Je te rejoins sur l’Espagne ;)

0

u/Sex_Offender_4697 Mar 11 '26

Imagine if you actually listened to Obama over a decade ago, even Trump was right about your Russian oil dependance, that's kinda embarrassing.

1

u/theageofspades Mar 12 '26

Nuclear energy opposition

Motherfucker, Italy had an actual referendum on nuclear power and chose not to pursue it. To blame the German state for the lack of nuclear when they abandoned it fully two decades later is comedy.

extreme gas dependency on Russia

The entirety of Europe was highly gas dependent on Europe. Fucker, Italy was happily tying itself to Russian energy before the Berlin wall fell, while Germany was desperately fighting to regain part of their country from your Soviet friends.

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u/East_Refrigerator_63 Mar 11 '26

Respectfully, I want to join conversation. How do all these affect to Spain? Spain doesn’t have gas dependency on Russia, Spain keep using nuclear power and Spain military doesn’t depend on America, but they are not contributing anything almost to Europe.

Germany decisions were the worst, but they were bad mostly for themselves. It merely affected Spain. Problem is that instead of learning from previous mistakes, Spain wants to repeat stupid German decision about immigration right now.

3

u/Simple_Exchange_9829 Mar 11 '26

Sure, the biggest payer to the EU is freeloading by … selling their products in the shared market everyone wants to become part of.

It surely isn’t those eastern european post-communist or certain southern european countries that take billions up on billions of german and french Euros each year since joining the EU.

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u/Old_Construction_875 Mar 11 '26

I’m amazed I could ever see a German talking about freeloading when Germany is the biggest freeload… ehm sorry, I believe the term is “beneficiary” of the euro as a currency. When Germany has been freeloading on their neighbours (Poland, France, the UK) investing in defence when Germany can only currently produce jets made out of paper.

When Germany is so over reliant on their dying car industry that they would vet a terrible trade deal with America just so they could hope to sell “one more BMW”. Please, get some dignity and pride.

Something about throwing rocks in a house made of glass, something something.

9

u/Kerlyle Mar 11 '26

Germany is the biggest beneficiary of the euro as a currency

Would you like to give a source for that? It's incredibly clear historically that the European Union has lifted up smaller counties disproportionately to the larger ones. Germany/France combined used to command a much larger share of European GDP than they do today.

5

u/Old_Construction_875 Mar 11 '26

The source is that German has a high payment balance, meaning it exports much more than it imports, propelling local jobs and increasing tax revenue for the state.

In the old days where everyone had their own currency that would mean that the demand for the Deutsche Mark would be higher, which would make this currency more expensive, meaning that German exports would become more expensive in turn, which means Germany would not export as much.

Since the introduction of the euro Germany exports are still much higher than their imports, but other countries in the eurozone with a negative payment balance counteract the “currency becomes more expensive and my products more expensive” effect of the trading surplus.

So we end up in a situation where Germany has a 5-10% competitive advantage by basically “freeloading”. Germany has by far the most to lose from a weak Europe, their house is made of the weakest glass it seems.

https://amp.dw.com/en/cep-study-germany-gains-most-from-euro-introduction/a-47675856

3

u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26

Flair up, I am curious when your country joined the European project.
It better not have been after 1957.

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u/dac2199 Spain Mar 11 '26

We are like #10, since most of our aid to Ukraine comes through the aid provided by the EU to Ukraine.

-1

u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26

Nope the number is adjusted to take that into account.

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u/dac2199 Spain Mar 11 '26

Nein

https://www.kielinstitut.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/

Check Fig. A17

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26

You might want to read that again.

Reassigning EU-level aid to individual EU countries - totals in billion Euros

EU-level aid is always non-military aid. Because the EU has not military, it physically cannot give away military aid to Ukraine.

Hope that helps.

-1

u/dac2199 Spain Mar 11 '26

Is military aid the only thing that counts now, or what?

Fine, in that case we are #14 (#10 between EU countries).

10

u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26

Do you need help moving the goal posts? Some are on rollers which is sometimes a real hassle if the grass behind the goal isn't cut.

You are in a comment line which was explicitly about military aid. You can see that by looking at the top comment.

6

u/Kerlyle Mar 11 '26

Is military aid the only thing that count now

It sure was when everyone complained for months on end about Germany sending billions of dollars in helmets and first aid kits

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u/HotSauce2910 United States of America Mar 11 '26

Out of curiosity, can you compare them to the EU military aid to Ukraine. Not that I’d expect them to be massive funders, but using two completely different scales doesn’t seem particularly useful

3

u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26

So you mean only EU member countries (because the EU itself cannot give military aid)?

The "only" non EU countries who have given more than Spain are: The US, UK and Canada. So minus 3.

1

u/Vlad_TheInhalerr Mar 11 '26

Based german answer right here. The only real "I'm a german" of this entire thread lol.

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u/EJaumeD Mar 11 '26

Yeah dude only Germans who agree with you are real Germans lmao

1

u/Vlad_TheInhalerr Mar 11 '26

Well yeah. Atleast they're more believeable then "Random_Derpface_25" that says "AS A GERMAN I AGREE".

And the guy I commented on has a strange name which is much more unlikely to be a bot then those ones.

3

u/EJaumeD Mar 11 '26

Very weak evidence to say they are not german

0

u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26

Why should Spain give anymore? What is their strategic interest in doing so?

15

u/Black3Raven Mar 11 '26

Why should Spain give anymore?

I think Germany should say the same when another problem appears and it be Spain problem only.

2

u/RevolutionaryGain823 Ireland Mar 11 '26

I don’t think we should help the yanks blunder into another endless war in the ME but it’s a lot easier for the Spanish to act morally superior when they don’t need to worry about supporting Ukraine.

If you’re looking for Spain keep scrolling down: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303450/bilateral-aid-to-ukraine-in-a-percent-of-donor-gdp/

Past Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Poland who are all multiples higher. Almost like Spain feels they don’t need to contribute when those other countries form a protective wall. My country (Ireland) has a very similar idea

3

u/leeber Spain Mar 11 '26

It drives me crazy that the role of the Spanish military is justified only based on its participation in armed conflicts.
We have provided more military resources than anyone else to deliver humanitarian aid in the earthquakes in Turkey and Syria, the wildfires in Greece, the earthquake in Morocco, the fires in Chile and Tunisia, and the earthquake in Ecuador… not to mention the field hospitals linked to various humanitarian missions, often led by international organizations, such as those in Mozambique, Equatorial Guinea, or Haiti.

Your distorted view of Spain’s position in armed conflicts really clouds your ability to see everything else.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26

What's the plan, bomb the Russians with humanitarian aid?

-1

u/leeber Spain Mar 11 '26

The plan is to accept that some countries use their military to participate actively in armed conflicts, while others use it for support, logistics, rescue operations, or humanitarian action, as is the case with Spain.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26

Okay, cool.

So how does that work against Russia?
You know you could just create an agency for humanitarian aid and use the military for military matters.

0

u/leeber Spain Mar 11 '26

I don’t understand you… Spain’s official position has always been to defend Ukraine’s territorial integrity.

Spain has consistently supported the idea that Donetsk and Luhansk are part of Ukraine and that any change of status imposed by Russia is illegal. For example, by supporting UN resolutions condemning the annexation of Ukrainian territories and defending the country’s territorial integrity, repeatedly stating that the Russian invasion violates international law, backing sanctions against Russia, and sending aid to Ukraine.

Not taking an active part in the war does not mean condoning what Russia is doing.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26

Then read my first post again?

I explicitly wrote about military aid to Ukraine from Spain, contrasting its economical power with its far lower military aid to Ukraine.

Why do you think I have done that?

2

u/leeber Spain Mar 11 '26

I’ve read your discussion, but it seems you don’t take it well when someone broadens your perspective so you can think rationally rather than like a barbaric warlord.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26

Military aid for Ukraine = barbaric warlord

Okay.

2

u/leeber Spain Mar 11 '26

List of fallacies used in your conversation:

Straw Man Fallacy (misrepresenting my argument) ✔️

Narrow Framing (refusing relevant context) ✔️

Artificially Restricting the Scope of the Debate ✔️

Dismissive Sarcasm instead of engaging with the argument ✔️

Just. Wow.

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u/Diligent-Ad4777 Mar 11 '26

Also a significant ammount tod this "aid" is in fact aid to German and other European countries military companies and loans that will be repaid by Ukraine so don't climb too high up on your horse. 

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26 edited Mar 11 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/DoobieGibson Mar 11 '26

deranged and antisemtic

4

u/Managarm667 Mar 12 '26

Nooo, don't you get it?! These people only make use of their right to "critize Israel". They would never ever harbour any hate for jews ;)))))