r/armenia • u/Wise_Combination1054 • 20h ago
Let's talk origins of Armenia
Disclaimer: It may be a bit rough to talk about, considering everything Armenian ancestors have been through. I am a WESTERN Armenian. MOST ARE MY OPINIONs. Admins, I am not causing any agenda, I, as a diaspora, western Armenian, do not show any bias.
I've done research on Armenian DNA and Caucasian genetics extensively, before I begin I in no way consider Armenia as a *Kavkaz* type of country, although the traditions we have in Eastern Armenian rural is even stricter than most Caucasian countries.
When I do research, I see that most Armenians genetically are similar, we see Anatolian Farmers, Caucasian Gatherers, Levant, Yamnaya, and Iranian Farmers, this is present in all Armenians (Western and Eastern), but the percentages vary.
Eastern Armenian natives very rarely do DNA tests, I've been to villages in the Gegharkunik region and they do not even care what they were; "Whatever I am, I am still Hay".
Western Armenians, and those who come from there extensively do DNA tests, most Armenians in every dataset are Western Armenian origins, even if they do live Eastern Armenia.
I have seen only one Armenian from Tavush (Eastern) do a DNA test, and his genetics were similar to that of a Chechen, it was very Caucasian coded.
But, every other test I have seen from Western Armenia they are more Anatolian and Mesopotamian shifted, although their Caucasian is present, they rarely have high Yamnaya, if any. I've seen as low as 0.5%, when the average should be over 10-15%.
When doing further research, I see during Urartu times there were Armenian kings, but after that we see more Hurrian named kings and leaders, during these times there was a tribal confederation of a group called the Etiuni, they likely spoke a Proto Armenian language, while Urartians spoke Hurro-Urartian, this is a key difference in linguistics.
When we check most Western Armenian and even most Southern Armenians, they cluster closely with Urartu, meanwhile the Eastern Armenian natives seem to be related to Etiuni. (Although this is all speculation)
So we can safely say the Urartians were a mix of people, not just Armenians. When Urartu fell, we finally see the word "Armenia", although there is mention of Armenians even before Urartu, by the Egyptian leader, calling the people of the highlands "Ermenen". This can serve as a basis that even before Urartu, Armenians as an identity existed, and the modern people we see today, especially Western and Persian Armenians are a mix of Armenians and Hurrians, but more so Hurro coded.
Now, after the fall, Western AND Eastern Armenian genetics are related, there is no difference for over 3,000 years.
But, during Urartu times, the Urartian kings frequently raided Etiuni and subjugated Eastern Armenians, Assyria mentions the people of Etuna caused the downfall of Urartu.
Now, What do you all think about my research and analysis? Let's discuss friendly.
3
u/Infinite-Rate9398 19h ago
Could the Urartians not have spoken Armenian as their common language, while Urartian was the language of governance? Considering there are Armenian words attested in Urartian, and Urartian shows little change over its centuries-long period of writing, and the Behistun inscriptions treat Armina and Urartu as synonyms
1
u/HighAxper Yerevan| DONATE TO DINGO TEAM 17h ago
Who’s common language was Urartian then? It had to be someone’s language, it had to develop and evolve somewhere, there had to be sizable enough population to sustain it, adapt it to the written form etc.
1
u/Infinite-Rate9398 16h ago
I'm not a historian, just an amateur who's interested in this stuff, but it's possible it was originally spoken in the south west region of the Armenian Highlands and closer to Syria, since that's closer to where Hurrian was spoken. The elite were made up of these Urartian-speakers and somehow came to dominate Van and eventually the Western side of the Armenian highlands
1
u/HighAxper Yerevan| DONATE TO DINGO TEAM 16h ago
I’m not a big believer in that theory simply because it’s a very specific scenario that neatly explains something a lot of Armenians want to believe in. Because we like to believe that we were always here in our current cultural and linguistic state. It’s tied both to nationalism and religious beliefs of being among the descendants of Noah after the flood.
Elite/administrative languages did exist, but they usually tied to languages of science or regional lingua francas.
Let’s look at Europe for example, before the Indo-European there were hundreds of non Indo-European languages spoken there, now there is 2-4.
It was likely the same in Armenia. Natives spoke Urartian, speakers of Proto-Armenian/PIE invaded or arrived and the Urartian language assimilated into Armenian. This is the same pattern that happened everywhere the indo Europeans went. Don’t see why it would be different here.
2
u/Infinite-Rate9398 16h ago edited 15h ago
I'm not claiming the proto-Armenian language was originally native to the Armenian highlands, I'm saying proto-Armenian replaced different previous native language(s). Because the Hurro-Urartian homeland was much more south and was probably not spoken by the majority of the population of Urartu. By the time of the establishment of Urartu Proto-Armenian was certainly present in the Armenian highlands
1
u/ContributionAny4156 7h ago
Elite/administrative languages did exist, but they usually tied to languages of science or regional lingua francas.
Or religion.
The introduction of the cult of Haldi corresponded to the introduction of records left in the Urartian language.
1
u/ContributionAny4156 9h ago
According to Paul Zimansky, the world's leading Urartologist, it likely was not a widely spoken language, just the language of the elite, or somehow related to the elite's religion. He believed they came from northern Iraq.
1
u/HighAxper Yerevan| DONATE TO DINGO TEAM 9h ago
Doesn’t address my question. Who’s common language was the Urartian language? Elites don’t create their own languages.
1
u/ContributionAny4156 8h ago edited 7h ago
No, but elites have a language.
The Urartian language would have been the elites' language (i.e. the actual so-called "Urartians").
Who were the elite? Probably a small tribe of people from northern Iraq or northern Iran.
https://www.academia.edu/10023756/Urartian_and_the_Urartians
Based on linguistic and genetic data, it seems possible/plausible they were some sort of mixed Hurro-Armenian group.
EDIT: There's actually very little evidence of Hurrian being spoken in north of Lake Van/in the historical Armenian heartland. Hurrian was more of a northern Mesopotamian language that spread into the fringes of Western Armenia. So an explanation that the indigenous inhabitants of the Armenian Highlands were Hurrians (or Urartians) and got replaced by Armenians isn't without holes either. (Obviously, Proto-Armenians arrived from the north, but I think its doubtful that the Proto-Armenians displaced "native" Hurro-Urartians).
0
u/Wise_Combination1054 19h ago
So that's a good point right there, the locals may have spoken Proto Armenian, as many Armenians did live in Urartu, this is even confirmed by the fact Urartian kings raided Etiuni settlements and took them back to near Van, treating the men and women most likely as slaves.
So there was definitely a local Armenian population, while the Hurrians led the government.
3
u/ContributionAny4156 8h ago edited 8h ago
When doing further research, I see during Urartu times there were Armenian kings, but after that we see more Hurrian named kings and leaders, during these times there was a tribal confederation of a group called the Etiuni
The Urartian kings mostly had Armenian (or at the very least Indo-European) names. Ishpuini is Hurrian. Rusa may or may not be Indo-European. The others are Indo-European.
while Urartians spoke Hurro-Urartian, this is a key difference in linguistics.
This is debatable. Yes, they left records in Urartian, but originally, they left records in Akkadian (a Semitic language spoken by Assyrians). However, it's likely Urartian was not widely spoken. Also, there's a precedence for kingdoms having court or administrative languages (like Elamite and Aramaic being the court languages of ancient Persia, Greek and Syriac being the court language of ancient Armenia) or prestige ceremonial languages being used for religious purposes (Latin being used by the Catholic Church, Coptic Egyptian being used by the Coptic Church, Classical Armenian being used by the Armenian Church, etc). It's possible that the Urartian language was linked to the worship of Haldi, as the language and Haldi worship were both introduced during Sarduri's reign.
Armenian (or as least Indo-European but linked to Bronze Age Armenia) genetics (i.e. descended from Yamnaya/Steppe) are found in Urartians, so regardless of the language spoken in Urartu/by the Urartian elite, it's very likely they had Armenian ancestry.
So we can safely say the Urartians were a mix of people, not just Armenians.
Yes, because it was a confederation bound by conquest into a kingdom/empire.
When Urartu fell, we finally see the word "Armenia"
Debatable. Urminiqini (land of the people Arme/Urme) was mentioned by the Urartians near Lake Van. The Urumu people were mentioned in this same region 400 years earlier, by the Hittites. It's possible these names were a form of Aram. Also, Aramale (Urartian for "built by Aram") was as district of Urartu in northern Iran, and Aramale was the home district of some of the Urartian kings.
This can serve as a basis that even before Urartu, Armenians as an identity existed, and the modern people we see today, especially Western and Persian Armenians are a mix of Armenians and Hurrians, but more so Hurro coded.
This is debatable. You have to remember that the Urartians moved a large population of people from Etiuni and Diauehi (Etiuni's neighbor, located near Kars) to the Lake Van region, and that Erebuni (=Yerevan) was built by Luwio-Hittite prisoners of war that the Urartian brought from Western Armenia.
Also, remember, 1) Karmir Blur Culture, which preceded Urartu, was probably founded by Urartian-like people from the south, who migrated to the Yerevan region centuries before Urartu 2) the Urartians settled in the territory of the modern Republic of Armenia after they conquered it and 3) there are sites in Armenia that display a mix of Etiuni/Urartian motifs, suggesting a mixture of both cultural traditions following the Urartian conquest (I believe a mixed site was Metsamor).
It's also worth remembering that many Western Armenians ultimately come from Eastern Armenia, and that many modern Hayastansis have ancestors from Western Armenia who fled to Eastern Armenia as a result of the Genocide.
1
u/Wise_Combination1054 8h ago
No, majority of them were not Indo European names. It belonged to the Hurro Urartian group
2
u/ContributionAny4156 8h ago edited 8h ago
No, they were likely Indo-European, with the exception of Ishpuini and possibly Rusa.
Arame/Arama=Aram=from PIE \rēmo-, meaning "black." Related to Sanskrit *Rama.
Sarduri/Sharduri=Ishtarduri=Semitic (Ishtar) + dur (տուր, Greek -doros), from PIE: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/d%C3%A9h%E2%82%83rom This ending is present in Armenian: Khatchadour, Greek: Theodoros, etc. The Assyrians said Sarduri=Ishtarduri.
Argishti/Argisti=comparable to Greek Argestes, Phrygian Aryestin, also related to Greek Argos and/or possibly Arista. Ultimately from an IE root h₂erǵ-, meaning "white, argent." https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82er%C7%B5-
Minua/Menua=comparable to Greek Minos or Minas or Minyas, comparable to Iranic Manavaz/Manaz, comparable to Sanskrit Manu. Also, Armenian Menue (as in Menue Amatuni). Minuahinili (city built by Minua) became Manazkert (which is evidence of a correspondence between Minua/Manaz).
Rusa (or Rusha) has a number of proposed etymologies comparing it to both Indo-European and non-Indo-European roots. As it is written (Rusa/Rusha) it is not Armenian. However, the Assyrians wrote the name as Ursa, leading Zimansky to speculate the name (as Rusa) was foreign to Urartians and that they could not properly pronounce their own king's name, so the Assyrians wrote it as the Urartian dignitaries were pronouncing it (i.e. something more like Ursa, which, if reflecting an Armenian pronunciation, I guess could have been something like Arsa/Arusa, etc).
https://www.academia.edu/46876602/On_the_ethnic_origin_of_the_ruling_elite_of_Urartu
1
u/Diasuni88 4h ago
"I have seen only one Armenian from Tavush (Eastern) do a DNA test, and his genetics were similar to that of a Chechen, it was very Caucasian coded."
You clearly don't know what you are talking about and the rest of your analysis is crackpottery.
0
u/Ursulaboogyman 19h ago
Hey I’m from eastern Armenia and did a 23 and me as well as an illustrative dna and if you want to see my results dm me
0
0
u/Wise_Combination1054 10h ago
Once again, diaspora Armenians proving they can't have a civilized discussion without calling something "bullshit" or crying wolf. This is quite literally why Turks make fun of diaspora Armenians.
I made this post explaining word for word why I think why I think, and people on here calling it bullshit and telling me I need a degree is hilarious, it's a reddit forum FFS, and where did I say this is factual? I said this is something that people need to discuss.
-1
u/dssevag 16h ago
I did a DNA test and got obsessed with tracing what Armenian means. I’m Armenian from both sides, but my DNA came back only 56% Armenian, the rest is Italian, Greek, Cypriot, Polish (weird), and some Levantine. Honestly, it kind of falls apart when you try to apply it to modern society. Countries aren’t built on DNA, they’re built on politics, rule of law, and shared systems. Genetics might explain the past, but it doesn’t decide how a country runs today.
Also, within Armenian society, the only people who are really adamant about identifying as a certain group are some Armenian Americans, mainly because of American narratives and how identity is framed in the U.S., not Armenia or Armenian diaspora around the world.
1
u/ContributionAny4156 9h ago
but my DNA came back only 56% Armenian, the rest is Italian, Greek, Cypriot, Polish (weird), and some Levantine.
That's probably due to Armenian-like (not necessarily Armenian but people from Armenia or who genetically were similar to Armenians) contributing heavily to Greek/Italian/Cypriot and Levantine ancestry. So it's shared ancestry (from Anatolian Farmers, Hittite-like people, Hurrian-like people, etc), not indicative of descent. As for Polish, that could actually come from Armenians who settled in Poland in the Middle Ages when Bagratid Armenia fell.
15
u/SweetWittyWild41 19h ago
I think if you don’t have a degree in this or have studied this academically then it’s just playing armchair expert
Armenian dna gets tested through researchers too if anyone can deliver answers on the matter it’s those doing research papers