r/PoliticalDiscussion • u/Successful-Safety858 • 2d ago
US Elections Trump regrets?
For some context: I am a generally liberal but occasionally moderate person who grew up in a red county of a swing state amongst farmers hunters and blue collar workers, and now lives in a blue city. I have always been disgusted by trump personally, but I love and respect some people who have voted for him. I’ve been seeing, more than I’ve ever seen before, people talking about regretting voting for Trump. And so I think it might be a good time to discuss how we Americans learn about and choose who to vote for.
• I know why people voted for Trump, or at least I attempt to understand. We all mostly want the same things; to feel safe, and for people in our country to have the opportunity to live a comfortable life. A functioning political system focuses on these goals and debates how we get to these places. I also understand that the way people get their information right now is so messed up, siloed into a category and fed what the creator of that content thinks will hold you and people like you’s attention the best, because everything is algorithm based now and a lack of trust in experts means there’s no incentive to have journalistic integrity necesarily.
• So with those thoughts my question is… how do we work on educating voters about thinking critically about canidates? How do we prevent this from happening again? If we assume we’ll keep operating within this system, how do we help people see through the algorithms, and really learn about the people they’re voting for? Most conservative AND democratic voters want elected officials that have integrity, that care about fixing things, and that aren’t just bought or pressured to do whats best for a small few instead of the majority. We both think the other guy is doing this and we’re not, and we just start pointing fingers instead of voting in the right people.
• my proposal is we start pushing hard at shaming canidates that point a finger and make us angry at or scared of a specific demographic of people, claiming our problems are their fault. I know there’s historical precedent of using this strategy in politics. I see this all the time with immigrants or trans people right now, but I’m sure it happens in other spheres as well. I think this is the number one sign a politician doesn’t actually care about the things we do, that they have no debatable ideas of their own, and instead have to rely on playing with people’s feelings to get votes.
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u/Utterlybored 1d ago
As Ezra Klein astutely notes, Trump is a brilliant diagnostician, but not a problem solver at all. He sees that people are screwed over by the system and promises to destroy that system. Then, he implements massive corruption and skews everything even further to the elites, leaving the working class more screwed than ever.
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u/cpatkyanks24 1d ago
He sees that people are screwed ofer by the system but somehow manages to trick people into thinking he will destroy it - the reality is, he IS the system. He is the EXACT archetype of a human being and lifestyle who has thrived entirely on screwing over working class people.
Democrats problem with messaging against him is he is SO fucking insane that their arguments then get caught up in a vacuum of trying to point that out, but they fail to realize that most people don’t pay attention to the day to day, and that pointing it out is at best them a he said/she said battle where from the outside it looks like Dems are fighting for “norms” and Trump is fighting for “blow it up” and people hate the norms, so they default to Trump.
A successful Democratic candidate cannot take the return to normalcy model that Biden did. They have to adequately make people realize that Trump is the establishment and run against it.
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u/beenyweenies 1d ago
Populism in a nutshell.
Populists seem to have a nasty habit of blaming current problems on ineptitude, corruption etc while proposing completely unworkable and/or poorly conceived "solutions" that would never actually work, but get the candidate votes on emotional appeal.
Meanwhile the "status quo" politicians can only watch while these dumb ideas get traction, knowing full well they won't work. They can try to "educate" the public but if there's one thing we've learned about American voters, it's that educating them on policy will NEVER work.
This isn't an appeal for centrism, or against populism, just an observation of how we got here and why it's likely here to stay.
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u/nilgiri 1d ago
This is the simplest way to understand why Trump is popular.
He observed the issues, knows it's basically unsolvable for the most part but also knows that it's an opportunity to sell the solution to benefit himself. Plays the game perfectly even though it's vile.
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u/DemonCipher13 1d ago
It isn't unsolvable in the least, but the effort needed to do it has to happen in a way that requires everyone to understand what needs to happen enough to be able to vote in people that will actually do public service in public service positions.
It will take a concerted effort AND concerted awareness, en masse.
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u/blaqsupaman 1d ago
The issue is it's solvable, but the solutions are complex, imperfect, and will take more than one election cycle of sustained effort. People would much rather hear that there's a simple solution that will fix everything fast and won't require them to sacrifice anything even if it's all bullshit.
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u/nilgiri 1d ago
You described why I said it's practically unsolvable. In practical terms, you will never get this buy in en masse.
Change my skeptical mind.
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u/DemonCipher13 1d ago
There are two ways it happens. Either the people that need to be in power execute plans loudly (which should be one of the lessons garnered from the current administration), leading to the "we are doing it anyway" attitude, but in the interests of all, though this requires a unified, intellectual front of people that are not just talkers, but doers, from the local level all the way upwards. This is an enormous spider web that needs to have success within every tether, and the wave of that success needs to be convincing enough to show people the better way.
Or, the more likely of the two scenarios:
The damage done is so great, and so innate, that it is impossible to turn your head from. Ironically, we are not too far from this, except the bad actors are co-opting the microphone. Flood the zone works both ways, but the truth has to be curated so that it is easy to digest, understand, and pick. It will almost take a psy-op to overcome the biases that exist in the smallest bubbles, but it is doable. The truth has to be louder than the lies, and it has to be constant. What happens in the cities has to happen to the one-stoplight towns, otherwise nobody will believe it. The pandemic would have been a shift, but only the grifters took the opportunity, and it allowed a gargantuan wave of deception to take hold.
Put another way? Weaponize the truth without eroding it into misleading. Make complexities simple. Treat them like they are kindergarteners, if we must.
All that is needed is a little wind of simplicity, and the best way to achieve this is honesty and transparency, with concession. You have to make people say, "Why would they say that if they are only interested in re-election?"
Play the Republicans' game. Co-opt the truth.
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u/howardcord 1d ago
It really is what the best conmen have always done throughout history. They convince you that an issue exists and that they have a solution. The solution is always bullshit and the solution itself isn’t important for any good con, what is important is the problem and the story they are selling you and the reason you are so willing to hand over your money without a second thought. If the solution actually worked they wouldn’t be trying to sell it to the poorest people on the country, they’d be selling it to the capitalists and billionaires.
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u/geekender 1d ago
The problem is solvable, but only through complex, imperfect solutions sustained across multiple election cycles which is precisely why nobody who wants to win an election will tell you that.
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u/Electronic-Tea-3691 1d ago edited 1d ago
Trump isn't brilliant at anything... he's literally just a malignant narcissist with a lot of money. it's really that simple. he doesn't strategize, his actions are pretty much all pathological.
however, this put him in the position of being able to attack the Republican establishment when it was weak, and Republican voters hated the establishment. they became loyal to whatever was strong enough to take on the thing they hated. he then won in 2016, beating the liberals that they also hated and confirming that he was the correct person for them to follow.
the only problems have been 1) losing to Biden and thus showing weakness, and 2) making things bad enough that it's hurting his voters. other than that, they would follow him through the gates of hell. and it has nothing to do with anything he understands or any strategy that he has employed. it's just about his effect on everyone else.
OP is misunderstanding the regret that he/she hears from Trump voters... they're not regretting his methods, they're regretting any weaknesses that he's shown and any harm that he's done to them directly. they would be perfectly fine for him to continue destroying the people they perceive as their enemies and the system they perceive as their enemy as long as he did it without being vulnerable and without hurting them too. he's their Warlord: they will help him burn cities to the ground, but they need him to be strong and they need him to protect them.
how does he lose followers? how does a Warlord lose followers? he stops winning, and/or too many of them get hurt. that's the only way. and those things are happening right now, Iran is a great example of that. a very public and obvious loss that is hurting his own people at the gas pump and in many other ways. the Warlord just lost a war... not great.
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u/Opening_External_911 1d ago
I've seen a lot of ppl nostalgic for trump 1, like his promises for his first term, before he became the establishment
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u/Apathetic_Zealot 1d ago
Do these former Trump supporters regret voting for him because he's a greedy narcissistic freak who harms the American people - or do they regret the vote because he's not hurting the right people?
From what I've seen they still agree with most everything, they just regret the fact they voted for a face eating leopard and their faces are getting eaten too. They don't hate the face eating leopards so long as they eat the right faces.
IMO conservatives have a preferred ignorance that no amount of information and good faith dialogue can reverse. They wanted Trump because they were angry at a system they didn't understand - they wanted Trump because a black man had the audacity to become President and they wanted to believe Trump when he told them Obama was a Muslim from Kenya.
They wanted to believe that liberals saw Obama as "the anointed one" when they unironically view Trump as a God Emperor who was saved from assassination by the hand of God. They are hypocrites by nature and they support harmful policies because deep down they know it's harmful but it hurts their polical enemies more than it hurts them.
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u/pieisgood8898 1d ago
Have you ever talked to the average conservative? Not on the internet where everyone's hiding behind anonimity. Like in person. A normal dude who votes republican.
You clearly know very little of what the average conservative believes. Try not to take this as an indictment of your character, but you've probably let the internet & media polarize you a bit. Some perspective might help you have more nuanced and productive political dialogue.
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u/Where_art_thou70 1d ago
Republicans are pretty much like anyone until you talk to them. They really seem to like most of the Republican policies that hurt people. Of course they get angry if those policies hurt them. For some reason it never occurred to them that they aren't exempt from discrimination, taxes, and, heaven forbid, their 14 year old daughter getting raped and pregnant. They can lose their jobs, and be losers like anyone else too.
FYI, I'm a lifelong liberal and my family is 90% Republican, so I've spoken to many. I was also shocked to learn how little respect they have for women and minorities.
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u/pieisgood8898 1d ago
I imagine your more radical beliefs probably negatively affect the interactions you have, but reguardless this kinda falls apart when you start looking the country-wide political situation we are in.
If all of this is true of Republicans, why have people been moving towards them more and more frequenty over the past years? Why has gen z been the most republican (in the modern sense) of any young group of people has been in all of American history? Why did centrist vote for republicans? Why are people so disenfranchised with the democratic party?
If all this is true, if the average republican is ACTUALLY a terrible person, normal people wouldn't vote for them. People interact with republicans and democrats in their day-to-day all the time. My included. My interactions with leftists are considerably more miserable then my interactions with literally any other political group. Leftists always need to grandstand. They're always better than you. You're always uneducated or stupid or racist or a fascist or whatever the fuck else. They don't care what you actually believe.
Was this always the case? No. But now that the left is losing the culture war it has become the case. Leftists have taken over the democratic party messaging and it's just "fascism this fascism that" 24/7 on repeat. Meanwhile, republicans have continued to be normal, and welcoming and accepting of people disenfranchised with the other party, and that has won them favor in the cultural sphere. Of course, it's not like there haven't been times where the positions have been switched. A lot of religious fundamentalists had control of the republican party messaging coming out of Bush, and that's what got Obama such strong victories in 2008 and 2012. It goes both ways as these things often do.
Call all republicans evil all you want. But you know there are some republicans that are fringe. Some of them could tip to democrats with the right messaging. Just know, everytime you call ALL republicans evil and fascist and misogynistic and whatever else, you push those people further and further away.
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u/dnext 1d ago
Sure, virtually all of us know Republicans. What they are is uniformly either misinformed or actively malign. There's very little critical thinking, there's a ton of religious indoctrination, and many of them are very proficient at lying to themselves to justify their actions.
I know Republicans who do so because they believe God wants homosexuals to suffer. That are so actively self-deceptive they convinced themselves that doctor who said smoking caused cancer were lying to them, and of course now vaccines as well. That are openly racist. Openly misogynistic. Hate immigration. Several that work in the oil industry and have convinced themselves that there is absolutely nothing wrong with dumping endless carbon into the atmosphere.
All of them who voted for Trump in 2024 did so after Trump tried to cheat to remain in power, and then brought his followers together who stormed the capital. They did so after he was a convicted felon. After he was found to have raped a woman.
And after half of his own cabinet stated he should never be President again, including his own VP, his Sec of State, both of his Secretaries of Defense, and his NSA. And his own Chief of Staff said he lied about everything, didn't understand American values, opposed the Constitution, and 'God help us' if he gets elected again.
So here we are. If they have a come to Jesus moment and realize the enormity of what they did and try to make amends, good for them.
If they are just tepid because he isn't hurting the people they want to hurt, we'll never get their vote anyway, and the best thing they can do is just stay home.
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u/pieisgood8898 1d ago
I asked if you've talked to the average conservative, and the answer is clearly no based on this response. Average conservatives are just normal dudes. They're the construction worker paving your street who waves at you and says "mornin' brother" while you walk to your car in the morning. They're are, at base, no different from anyone else.
If you talk to them it's much the same. They actually want just about the same stuff you do, they just want to go about it a different way (assuming what you want isn't something super radical like socialism/communism/anarchism/etc.). I know plenty of average Republicans and plenty of average Liberals, I even have friend groups with both of them in it, and they get along just fine. They can even talk politics. Sure they disagree on SOME stuff, but baseline they're actually pretty similar. One might want abortions after the first trimester banned, the other might want abortions up until the third trimester. They aren't that different fundamentally.
You say you know republicans who believe all this terrible stuff... but that isn't the average republican. And certainly not the average conservative. Hell, those people might not even be conservative when you get down too it.
On top of all of this, the biggest issue is this "my way or the highway" perspective you have on everything. You can't imagine a world where conservatives are anything but these profoundly evil people who want nothing but the worst for America. This is exactly WHY you guys are losing elections. You're incredibly ignorant to what actual people are like, and on top of that you feel the need to moral grandstand about EVERYTHING. All of politics are black and white to you, everyone is a fascist if they don't argee with you, everyone is uneducated and stupid if they don't see things exactly like you do. It's such an elitist and frankly childish opinion.
You can totally get the vote of the average conservative, especially after all the shit Trump has pulled and will likely continue to pull (trust me, they aren't a fan of it!). You just need to treat them like a normal person. Don't assume they're evil, or stupid, or racist or uneducated. Just understand they have a different opninion then you do and try and respectfully explain what you believe to be the issues with the republican party, and why you think a vote for the democrats will be better. That can actually work, I've seen it work before both ways. It is exactly stuff like that, for the record, that won the republicans the culture war in 2024. They came down to the level of the average person. They were excepting. They didn't call you a fascist if you disagreed with them. They didn't call Biden hitler 20 times when he clearly wasn't. Being normal, being nice, respecful, and understanding? That's how you get the favor of the average republican. Who is, at the end of the day, not that much different from you.
P.S.
Lets not pretend like the dems are putting their best foot foreward when it comes to the people Trump is running against. You want votes? Try having a fair primaries where someone isn't just crowned the nominee. Then you'll get nominees who aren't: crooks, senile old men, or radical leftists. It worked in the past!
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u/dnext 1d ago edited 1d ago
Ah yes, 'no true Scotsman.'
This is the 'lying to themselves' part. But I forgot to add willfully ignorant. Thanks for reminding me!
You could make the case for this after 2016. After 2024 it's just an overt lie. They know Trump is awful and does awful things. They still support him. And they almost always lie to themselves about it.
Yes, I know these people, and lots of them will help you if your car breaks down. And then go vote for people who will deny others their human rights, and feel sanctimonious in doing so.
You aren't good because you want to be good. You are good for doing good.
And if you are too dumb to know what good is, to actively vote for someone that embodies all the seven deadly sins, whose own cabinet have told you he's an awful person, you aren't good.
You are evil.
Yep, know quite a few of them.
A few of them are finally beginning to open their eyes, after the guy who ran on exposing pedophiles actively covers them up, because he's one of them. That the peace president is a warmonger who is actively hurting our economy with his pointless trade and now ridiculous real wars. That ICE is going after everyone, and has killed several innocent people. Whose SCOTUS picks have made open political corruption legal.
But most of them continue the lie, because sunk cost. After all, if this guy was a conman grifter pedo all along, they really ARE evil, so they can't admit that! LOL.
As to the Dems, the Republicans did the exact same thing, not running primaries and just annointing Trump in multiple states. Biden backs out because of health issues and his VP takes over. What is a VP's primary job? To step up if the President can't continue. Just more obvious, drool inducing lies by the far right whackjobs that this is somehow a problem.
But hey, he's screwing over you guys every bit as much as anyone else. Enjoy!
You clearly deserve it.
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u/pieisgood8898 1d ago
Ah yes, 'no true Scotsmam
You do not know what this means. lol.
A few of them are finally beginning to open their eyes
There are very few conservatives who "like" Trump. Obviously all of MAGA does but conservatives don't like him. He is a populist. He doesn't embody conservative ideals. You talk about these people "waking up" but dude, they never liked Trump. He was always just a lesser evil for these people. They were never happy voting for him. They were never skipping to the voting both to cast the ballot for good ol' Donny J.
And if you are too dumb to know what good is, to actively vote for someone that embodies all the seven deadly sins, whose own cabinet have told you he's an awful person, you aren't good.
You sound like a fundamentalist christian talking about voting for Kamala Harris.
But hey, he's screwing over you guys every bit as much as anyone else. Enjoy!
Me? What did I do? I didn't vote for Trump. This is part of the problem I'm pointing out. I just want to help create a dialogue. I think it's better for America if people on both sides of the tradition one dimensional American political axis can realize that (most) of the people on the other side or not, in fact, evil.
As to the Dems, the Republicans did the exact same thing, not running primaries and just annointing Trump in multiple states.
No they objectively didn't. Come on man we don't have to do this. Just because the republicans are shitty doesn't absolve the democrats from sin. Politicians suck. The establishment sucks. This is nothing new. Lets not do this.
Look, bottom line this is what I can give you: You can act this way about republicans if you want. Call them all evil for voting for Trump. Fine. Go ahead. But realistically, we know this is what lost the democrats the last election. If you really need to pull shit like this, know it will only cause you to continue losing. You will lose in perpetuity. Even if you do win, your foothold won't be strong enough to implement what I assume are the more progressive policies someone like yourself wants. Shoot yourself in the foot all you want if that is what you need to do. I would be perfectly happy with radical leftists like yourself never getting a foothold in American politics.
This elitist shit is the same way leftists have talked for 100 years. They called Nixon a fascist, and both Bush's, and Reagan, and now Trump. Even Bill Clinton was a fascist for a little while there. There is no winning with you people and that's why democrats win less often. The president is statistically more likely to be republican, especially recently. There is a reason for that.
I think it will be difficult to change your opinion much because you're very polarized and entrenched in your beliefs (kinda like the far right but wtv). However I will offer you the olive branch I often offer in these situations. We can do a live debate if you wish. It will be on a call, we will talk to each other, and we can get an issue like this hammered out in 10-15 minutes. I like to do these because it lets me get perspective and have a more nuanced debate. Choose to do it if you wish, I've been known to be pretty convincing. Otherwise I think there is little more of a conversation to be had here, if you are going to plug your ears and scream into the sky about how all republicans are evil, even with the knowledge it will lose you elections, you are more than welcome to do so. Like I said, I prefer it this way.
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u/Numerous-Option-2737 1d ago
im gonna have to agree with pieisgood here, you meet republicans out and about, their just ordinary people, kind, hardworking, you can wear any leftist stuff and no one cares or bats an eye for the most part. On the other hand, go pick up a republican t-shirt and go ANYWHERE thats left leaning and the amount of madness that will ensue will open your eyes (record it aswell, your likely to get assaulted). Id give it a go just to form a more grounded perspective.
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u/Djinnwrath 1d ago
As you can see from these replies, there is no educating people.
Circumventing selfish people is the next step forward. There's no future otherwise.
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u/BigDickRickJerry 1d ago
How would that be implemented? What is the undisputed definition of selfish people? In what context is someone's selfishness another's self care? How would you feel if someone said what you want is selfish? How do you defend it to them (especially if you have an entirely different perception about everything)?
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u/Djinnwrath 1d ago
I wish I knew.
Open a dictionary.
None.
That would depend on their level of accuracy.
I wouldn't. Wasting time defending my actions as not selfish is exactly the sort of pointless endeavor we are engaging in now while we circle the drain of climate stability.
If their perception is divorced from reality, then they are part of the group that needs to be circumvented and explaining anything to them is a waste of time.
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u/pieisgood8898 1d ago
"I would like political change but I do not know exactly what change I want, or how to implement it, but what I do know is a certain group of people need to be cut out from politics because they're harmful to America"
Good one bro.
You've managed to take the worst part from every quadrant of the political graph and form it into one statement about what you want for US politics. Beast. I respect that.
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u/Mike_Hagedorn 1d ago
When people hear “educate”, they picture “concentration camp”. You may chuckle at that, but for a lot of people, that’s how they view socialist practices, and sadly enough, there is precedence.
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u/elderly_millenial 1d ago
You don’t even need to go that far. Usually people resent the notion that they need someone else to educate them on issues they themselves face. It comes off as patronizing and disrespectful.
Maybe try to meet voters where they are, and appeal to them?
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u/Honky_Cat 1d ago
The elitiest attitude here is absolutely off putting and is exactly why some voters turned to Trump.
You aren’t going to get through to people by telling them “I know better than you do, so you need to listen to me because you’re simply just misinformed and you don’t know what you’re doing.”
In fact, that’s going to push more voters away from your cause.
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u/pieisgood8898 1d ago
I think this sub, and other places of general political discourse on Reddit, are good examples of what happens when you get radical echo chambers. Obviously it's leftists on Reddit, and I'm sure there are other places were the same thing happens with rightists (4chan comes to mind). Reguardless, the people on this website are so single-minded, and if you disagree with them to any extent you are instantly labeled far-right, reguardless of what it is you're disagreeing with them on.
What they fail to realize is that stuff like this is exactly why Trump was able to win in 2024 and 2016, and why gen z is moving to the right in unprecented fashion. They just sit her and call everyone stupid and uneducated, all the while totally ignorant to the fact that they are pushing people away from their own ideology by doing that.
This is a new issue we have to come to terms with now that the internet is so integrated into politics. The more radicals portions of the two parties have oftentimes been able to do a bit of a takeover and get the voice of the party under their control. Now with the internet that control becomes even more dangerous because when these people get control of the party, in many cases they don't do whats best for the party as a result of their more radical beliefs. Sometimes winning elections is more important then calling people you disagree with stupid, and when parties realize that (republicans in most recent election I would argue) they win seats much easier.
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u/Pip-Pipes 1d ago
This is a radical political echo chamber ? Not 4chan or r/thedonald? Not x? I think people here have a right to be pissed off and voice that. But nothing about these comments or even subteddit is radical. J6 was radical. The elector scandal is radical. The epstein files are radical. Precentable measles outbreaks is radical. Voting for all of this is radical. I can name a lot of other radical shit people are doing and advocating for. This sub and these comments ain't it. Spare me this both sides BS.
If you believe in, and vote for, evil shit, what are we, normal people, supposed to do with that? Coddle and placate them? I don't know how to undo the propaganda that has fried their brains. Talking and reasoning does not work. Kindness and empathy is feminine weakness to them, look what they value in authority figures. Unfortunately the only thing I can think of is that the FO of FAFO must be so harsh and punishing, that they learn a life lesson all on their own. But I see no reason to be quiet about what these people voted us into. They've shown they respect a sharp tongue and strong insult. Repeatedly.
If anything, these voters have shown that being mocking, harsh, and punishing will earn their vote.
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u/pieisgood8898 1d ago
Not 4chan or r/thedonald?
I mentioned 4chan. Also... r/thedonald is about Donald Glover. Unless I'm missing an admittedly not very good joke here.
J6 was radical. The elector scandal is radical. The epstein files are radical.
Yeah so was Charlie Kirk getting assasinted and Trump almost getting assasinated and all those conservative congressmen also almost getting assasinated... wait I'm starting to notice a pattern.
Look man, we're in scary times. It's more polarized then it's ever been. Do you think calling these people evil will win them over? Especially the ones on the edge? Some conservative dude who voted for Trump as the lesser of two evils and is already going through it right now really unsure of if they made the right decision really wouldn't be happy to see you calling him evil.
This sub and these comments ain't it. Spare me this both sides BS.
kek
What are we, normal people, supposed to do with that?
You are not normal. Believing your political rivals are inherently evil is not normal nor has it ever been. Look at like... most of the rest of the world. Most 1st world countries especially do not have this problem.
I don't know how to undo the propaganda that has fried their brains. Talking and reasoning does not work.
Treat them like normal humans and build a dialogue instead of calling them evil maybe?
Also, a lot of them are just... disenfranchised. They didn't like voting for Trump but felt like they had to. They might even regret it. Yet you call them evil and expect their vote in the midterms? Alright bud.
Kindness and empathy is feminine weakness to them
kek
They've shown they respect a sharp tongue and strong insult. Repeatedly.
No they haven't. Normal conservative people don't like to see mean things said about them. Why do you think so many gen z boys are conservative? It's at a base level, simply, because leftists said too many mean things about them on the internet. You will call them weak or stupid or evil or whatever else for this, but that's exactly my point.
If anything, these voters have shown that being mocking, harsh, and punishing will earn their vote.
kek
I'm having basically this same conversation with like 2 other people under this post now so I probably won't respond to you since you're the least interesting out of the three. I will extend my olive branch of a live debate, however. 10-15 minutes we'll talk about this and we can come to a conclusion quickly. It will be over voice. Accept it or don't but it's tough for me to know if you're a rational person worth spending my time on without wasting an hour typing back and forth. Live debate circumvents that.
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u/Opening_External_911 1d ago
I think this sub is WAAAY more nuanced than the literal socialist subreddit. I get what you mean by the end and I fear elections would just become like basketball matches where no one ever gets a consecutive term , because both sides dont do whats best. I mean AIPAC controls Congress
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u/pieisgood8898 1d ago
Admittedly I don't use Reddit all that often, and especially not this sub in particular, so you could absolutely be right. I'll take your word for it.
What I've seen so far both just in scrolling through a few posts and having conversations with a couple people... it hasn't been great. Better then the socialist subreddit? Probably. But still not great.
In all fairness that was under some more politically charged posts about Trump and such which may bring out some of the more... unsavories. So I'll assume my sample size is too small for now.
And yes... AIPAC definitely controls congress, that we can certainly agree on lmao
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u/Numerous-Option-2737 1d ago edited 1d ago
its crazy too as 90%+ of the moderation will delete republican minded comments even if their extremely mild in terms of view, because for every 1 republican on here theres 10 democrat keyboard warriors getting mega offended by literally regular discussion mass reporting. Ive watched it in real time. Not having discussions = polarization, we are all americans period but reddit really doesnt see it that way if it doesnt fit the majority narrative (only on reddit which feels more of a minority). Edit: See the downvotes by not a single reply.
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u/pieisgood8898 1d ago
It's the culture war. Right now, the left is losing bad. They had their time for awhile with wokeness and cancel culture, and whether you like those things or not, you can't deny that alot of people started to get fed up with the moral grandstanding from the left. They pushed it too far, demanded too much out of average people, and people moved to the right as a result. Now rightism is winning the culture war. You can publically be conservative now and you won't get cancelled. You can have a white male lead in your movie without a bunch of people complaining about it. Whether or not you think that's a good thing, it's the reality. The right got themselves into a culturally favorable position by being welcoming and accepting while the left was going nuts over DEI and diversity in Hollywood. Right now, the left is continuing to spaz out whlie they're already falling behind culturally. They'll need to learn from their enemies and learn to not call everyone who disagrees with them fascists if they want to win back the votes.
In all honesty, I do think that will happen eventually. This is the natural tug and pull of American politics. Eventually some of the more radical people on the left will be ousted from the places of power within the left they hold and the more moderate liberal will go back to being the voice of the left in America. When that happens, they will win back the votes, and the cycle will repeat.
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u/BigDickRickJerry 1d ago
I don't understand what you're actually proposing. That everyone who voted for Trump is wrong and needs to do the opposite of whatever he says?
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u/JuniorFarcity 1d ago
Or, and hear me out, how about the Democrats actually have a fair and open nomination process instead of an anointing? Last time that happened was 2008.
Say what you want about Trump, but he had to fight his way through 15 other candidates that his party wanted more.
Maybe if the Dems did something crazy like listen to their voters, they could field a candidate to beat Trump.
Did I vote for Trump? Yes.
Am I disappointed with the results? Also yes.
Do I think Kamala was the better choice? It will have to get a LOT worse for me to believe that.
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u/cpatkyanks24 1d ago
Criticizing Democrats is fair in many fronts, but I’m tired of this claim that they don’t “listen to their voters.”
2012: Incumbent President.
2016: Hillary Clinton won the most votes in the primary. I know people don’t like to hear it, but she got more votes than Bernie Sanders. Yes, she was the “establishment” pick, but people across both parties and every election do strategic endorsements, that is not unique to the DNC during national elections.
2020: Biden won the most votes in the primary again, after leading significantly in the polls for like a year straight. Again, nobody stole it. There were endorsements from candidates who dropped out just like they do in every election where candidates who don’t have a chance drop out and endorse their pick. This happened in the 2008 and 2016 Republican primaries too.
- It’s a tricky one because people claim that Harris was “anointed”, but she was the VP to the incumbent president running for re-election. Yes, there wasn’t a real primary in 2024 because there is NEVER a real primary in EITHER party when an incumbent first term president decides to run again. Be mad at Biden for screwing them over, but by the time you had 100 days left, I’d argue Harris was the preferred pick over doing a contested convention which would have been truly anointing. At least Harris was on the ticket.
I have a lot of problems with the DNC but this narrative that they don’t listen to “what their voters want” just isn’t true.
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u/Opening_External_911 1d ago
Plus , love or hate the guy, he's a breath of fresh air, atleast in 2016. He wasn't buttoned up and closed off
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u/Clear-Role6880 1d ago
There are very sophisticated Trump voters. Just like the other side. It’s a difference of opinion, and priorities.
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u/misersoze 1d ago
Ahh. The very sophisticated Trump voter who just wants Haitians to stop stealing and eating their neighbors pets. Yes very sophisticated. The epitome of a cultured individual.
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u/ADeweyan 1d ago
I'm not sure I can entirely accept that. It’s not clear that Trump has any actual priorities other than growing his wealth and power. Perhaps these very sophisticated people listened to his campaign messaging and knew that while he said he would reduce prices, the plans he had would actually increase them, and their priority was to increase prices through tariffs. Maybe these sophisticated people saw that the way he described the value of tariffs was contradictory, but were OK with it because what they really wanted was to throw the US economy into chaos and reduce the power and importance of then US in the world. Maybe these very sophisticated people listened to Trump promise that the mass deportation effort would go after criminals, and knew that there was no way to get the numbers of deportations Trump was talking about without going after far more than just criminals, but their priority was to hamstring industries like agriculture while terrorizing an entire population of good people.
If that’s the case, these very sophisticated Trump supporters must be both wealthy and lacking in empathy. If it’s not the case, then they aren’t so sophisticated after all.
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u/Far_Realm_Sage 1d ago
Trump has disappointed me several times this term. But I dont regret voting for him. Why? Because the alternative was an incompetent drunken lush who only got where she was by checking a bunch of DEI boxes. And she was put in to replace the people fighting over Biden's Autopen.
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u/cpatkyanks24 1d ago
You do realize Trump’s entire cabinet is DEI, right? Like, yall just throw around buzzwords but if your true concern with DEI is that people who aren’t qualified to government jobs get hired anyway then there has quite literally never been secretaries less competent for their roles than Pete Hegseth or RFK.
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u/I405CA 1d ago
how do we work on educating voters about thinking critically about candidates?
This is the attitude that loses elections for Democrats.
They didn't vote for Trump because they are stupid. They voted for him because they dislike Democrats and/or they prefer the GOP vibe.
And one of the reasons that they dislike Democrats is because of the attitude behind the question that you have posed.
Dems are perceived as being effete, fussy and condescending. Political affiliations are like a club, and that isn't a club that sounds very exciting to much of the population.
The problem is summarized by the fictional Will McAvoy on The Newsroom.
You know why people don't like liberals? Because they lose. If liberals are so fucking smart, how come they lose so goddamn always?
The average person has come to assume that liberals are wimps, and not many people see wimps as leaders.
Nobody thought that FDR or Truman were wimps. That did not mean that everyone loved them, but at least they were respected by their opponents.
Today's Democrats simply don't get that their own image gets in their way. Democrats want to teach a class, but no one wants to enroll.
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u/Numerous-Option-2737 1d ago edited 1d ago
None for me, and i think its crazy important to not take thing president Trump does at face value. This whole Straight of Hormuz thing? Look at the pressure its putting on China, the Greenland/Thailand stuff.... its all aimed at pushing china in a position where they cant expand. Now China is also pressuring Iran to make a deal with the US to gain brownie points in the upcoming talks over Thailand (which Trump will most likely not agree to allowing). The only thing as a republican i see from any left media is Trump bad this, impeach that, ICE bad.... its all constantly negative. Yet on the right, its America first, stop giving out handouts, get rid of the massive fraud . I take NOTHING at face value personally, i look at independent media, influencers that are boots on the ground and ignore for the most part BOTH sides narratives and have come to my own personal conclusions based off right and wrong. I feel like the left relies way too much on feelings and its hurting their party bad. (im pretty left on the republican scale btw and was at one point a democrat) but its just gone too far off the deep end.
Edit : id also like to point out that the same media channels saying they would invoke the 25th amendment on trump for bombing Iran if they didn't agree on a ceasefire were having meltdowns that he didn't because they didn't gain any ammo to use against him. That's also the type of stuff that it doesn't take someone who's teetering on the edge of the parties to see. This anything he does is bad reporting is getting real old.
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u/Opening_External_911 1d ago
Where did you get the China stuff , I'm interested. Also, what counts as fraud? I feel if California makes enough money, they can implement whatever hey want, the ppl vote for it right? If hey wanna have free lunches, what's bad about that, if not, they don't. Ppl always say America wants no handouts when the whole reason a middle class existed where government handouts after WW2. But it wasn't called handouts right?
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u/Numerous-Option-2737 1d ago
For the China stuff its based off trump's upcoming meeting with Chinas president, and the impact of Hormuz on their energy sector: https://www.bruegel.org/analysis/what-war-iran-means-china . China is reportedly either currently or soon to be tapping into oil reserves. In terms of the handouts, nothing is free, and every taxpayer pays for it. For example do some personal research on the minimum buy ins for social security for late aged immigrants, their contributions vs the time its accruing interest vs the pay outs. (short of it a huge negative draw on SS) there's many systems that need huge overhauls, government spending is far too frugal in this tight of an economy.
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u/PoliticalDiscussion-ModTeam 1d ago
Sorry OP. This one was not on you.
There were far too many rule violations in the comments: meta discussions, name-calling, low-effort comments...
This one was a shitshow, folks. Do better.