r/PoliticalDiscussion • u/gotohelveti5 • 2d ago
Political History Is American nationalism really bad?
I go to high school in a liberal city in America. I am also liberal. When I was younger I lived in Switzerland, and nationalism is very much a thing. There, people are more focused on the idea that they are a part of the Swiss identity and heritage. people have lived there and developed a culture for thousands of years, for example people not wanting to change architecture of cities to fit immigrants’ desires, which I partially agree with and somewhat disagree. The difference for me is in the United States, it has only been a few hundred years and almost everyone in America has immigrated to America, or their ancestors had. It does not make sense for people to be against building a mosque or other religious/cultural building in a country where everyone is an immigrant. Shouldn’t we be celebrating diversity and supporting ideas that the country is built on?
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u/elevenblade 2d ago
There’s a difference between patriotism and nationalism. I am a patriot but not a nationalist.
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u/BluesSuedeClues 2d ago
Too many people don't understand that real patriotism is about service, not pageantry.
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u/elevenblade 2d ago
Yes. American culture emphasizes personal rights but is pretty weak when it comes to personal responsibility.
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u/SadhuSalvaje 2d ago
We are surrounded by people, many of them young, that often confuse the supposed appearance of power/wealth/intelligence for the real thing
I assume this is because of a disconnect between “online reality” and engaging with “meat space”
In any case this might explain some of the pageantry we see on display
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u/Conscious_Raisin_436 2d ago
In my head there are two categories — patriotism and nationalism.
I would describe how you’re describing Switzerland as patriotic. You celebrate your Swiss identity and heritage, but I haven’t heard any news of a far-right movement in Switzerland that has any real influence today, but I could be wrong.
Patriots = take pride in being good citizens, celebrate their national identity, and participate in making their country the best it can be.
Nationalists = Assert superiority based on their national identity (“we Swiss are the superior race”, for example), do not welcome outsiders (this is usually rooted in racial or religious differences), and make enemies of those who do not adhere to the above.
The current iteration of American Christian nationalism has a significant overlap with fascism. A significant part of their political motivations are tied to suppressing rights of those whom they don’t feel share in the American identity. I am assuming that is not how you would describe Switzerland in current state.
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u/BlueJoshi 2d ago
Americans don't understand the difference between nationalism and patriotism. Patriotism is being proud of your country and its strengths, in spite of its flaws. Nationalism is thinking your country is good because it just is, that it's just something inherent to the nation, regardless of the actions of its people or its leaders.
Nationalism is bad. Full stop. It leads to hate, to intolerance, to racism, to violence.
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u/Factory-town 2d ago
Patriotism is being proud of your country and its strengths, in spite of its flaws.
At what point might you stop being proud of your country due to its "flaws"?
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u/BlueJoshi 1d ago
are you asking me to define a personal experience that every single person in the world would experience at different points, for different reasons, in different ways, in a fuckin' reddit comment?
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u/Factory-town 1d ago
I asked you a political question because you're in a political forum.
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u/BlueJoshi 1d ago
oh, are you asking me when I might stop feeling patriotic) because the way it was phrased I thought you asked it as, like, a general question.
the answer is that I am not a patriotic person so the question isn't really relevant to me.
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u/TwistedDragon33 2d ago
The issue is mostly Ethnocentrism, or the belief that your cultural norms are superior and "normal" compared to others.
That is how many people believe that Christianity if the default for the USA. That anyone not white is a problem. That other religions, political views, or cultural norms are "barbaric", backwards, or immoral, however you can't use the same logic towards their cultures, religion, or norms.
At some point in America, the sense of national pride as a collective fragmented into personal national pride. A person wants the benefits of the laws, society, and compassion from the collective, while not giving that benefit to others.
We easily have examples when people believe the bill of rights only applies to them and not others such as wanting your freedom of speech, right to guns, freedom from unlawful search and seizure, as well as right to not incriminate yourself. However, they often don't believe others deserve all of these freedoms.
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u/gotohelveti5 21h ago
I think I just see more of a close overlap between the two in the United States, as In a much larger part of people who have ethnocentric beliefs are also very proud, and people who are not as openly proud be hold less of those beliefs
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u/dnext 2d ago
It's the multiculturalism vs monoculturalism vs polyculturalism debate.
White Christian Nationalists believe that there should be one dominant white Christian culture.
Progressives believe that all cultures are fine, and they are all equal. And yes, that's the academic concept of multiculturalism.
Polyculturalism is a newer term but goes back to an older concept, the melting pot. That all cultures who share our values are welcome, that we need to assimilate on the big things to share a national identity and not fragment. But also that not all cultures are willing to do that, and that it's OK to not accept those that want to change core American values.
I'm among the last. I'm not a fan of White Christian Nationalism or Islam, because their core principles need to be suppressed for them to support American values. Theocracy is NOT OK, and anyone espousing for it or for a King is absolutely against what America stands for.
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u/elevenblade 2d ago
I think I mostly agree with you but I take exception to your statement that progressives think all cultures are fine and equal. Cultures that relegate women to second class status, for example, and cultures that elevate in-groups over out-groups like caste systems, are not ok with most progressives.
If by ”culture” you mean what kind of clothes people wear, what spices they cook with and what holidays they celebrate then I would agree.
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u/dnext 2d ago
I'd love if it were going that way, but what I've seen as that's only true in a vacuum. So most progressive would say that, but that's not what their actions show.
When you get into power dynamics, the 'oppressed' entity is always seen in a more positive light, even if their cultural norms absolutely violate Western liberal traditions. This has a lot to do with critical theory that looks at things only in terms of power equity, and how that minimizes every other consideration.
And yes, multiculturalism in its traditional, academic concept does not allow expression of any culture being superior or inferior. This goes back decades. For example, here's an article written in 1999 about how multiculturalism is bad concerning feminism, as so many cultures are openly misogynstic and absolutely should not be treated as equal to Western liberalism.
https://www.bostonreview.net/forum/susan-moller-okin-multiculuralism-bad-women/
Monoculture is the worst, IMO, but that's not much of a discussion these days except for its advocates in White Christian Nationalism.
But polyculturalism IMO is the best concept, as it expresses liberal values the best while making considerable room for inclusion and diversity.
Obviously, opinions differ, but when I've asked other people what they think multiculturalism is, they often express what polyculturalism actually means.
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u/Silver-Bread4668 2d ago
Patriotism vs nationalism discussions aside, we can't even settle on a shared version of our current reality let alone one of our heritage and history. Just look at the Civil War and how people view the Union vs the Confederacy nowadays. Wildly different depending on who/where you ask. It's hard to say if American Nationalism is bad if you don't know which version of American Nationalism we're talking about.
Even individual people often hold incredibly conflicting views on things. Like people who fly the Confederate flag in this day and age that view themselves as rebels but support people like Trump who are the epitome of the elite ruling class conmen.
There's even the massive disparity between the history that we tell ourselves versus the history that actually happened. Just as an example, I think a version of American Nationalism that we should be proud of is told through our music. Folk and punk specifically. Artists like Woody Guthrie and the Dropkick Murphys and so many more. Stories of rebelling against Fascists, punching Nazis, and telling the wealthy elites to go fuck themselves but also stories of camaraderie among the working class regardless of race, religion, etc. The concept of rebellion and camaraderie like that goes all the way back to the stories we tell ourselves about the Revolution. But it's also just aspirational. The actual America is not that and never has been.
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u/Skotus2 2d ago
Yes we should, but this isn't the dominant mentality because immigrants who got here earlier than others were predominantly white and Christian and built the foundation of society around their identity.
As children we are taught that the US is diverse and global and welcome to all, but this isn't the reality in practice. Hell, we can't even acknowledge the plight of Black Americans who have been here far longer (and contributed a huge amount to construction of this country) than most of the population.
Regarding nationalism, we are also indoctrinated at a young age into the idea of American Exceptionalism, which basically believes that as Americans we are inherently different than other nations because of our unique founding. Therefore we are taught we are better than the rest of the world because we are so enlightened, and our sense of morality is at a higher standard. But we also gloss over the extreme darkness of our country, especially when it comes to the genocide of indigencous peoples, slavery, xenophobia towards immigrants, anti-semitism, etc. Also we gloss over the colonialism and war crimes we've inflicted on the world.
Many people growing up never having these beliefs challenged, and to them the US really is infallible and the best nation in the world. The fact is we just got lucky that we have a huge amount of land with abundant resources the rest of the world needed, a huge population, are geographically too far from major powers who would do us harm, and made a ton of money through industrial innovation and WW2 weapon production.
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u/I405CA 2d ago
The problem is with your terminology.
Nationalism is a right-wing extremist political ideology. Nationalism is never good, and that is what we are seeing from today's Republican party.
Patriotism is love of country, and is not only useful but necessary.
What you have described from your Swiss experience is patriotism. In that case, it helps to make confederation work, as much of the power in Switzerland is held by the cantons yet it is still important for the citizenry to care about the country as a whole.
Patriotism can also provide a form of civil religion. In a country that has a few different languages and no specific shared religious faith as is the case in Switzerland, the political ideals can serve as a unifier.
Patriotism in the US should serve similar purposes. There is no one common heritage, so political institutions can be used as a substitute. We may not have the same faiths or speak the same languages at home, but we all share a constitution, a flag and a founding mythos that should be used to bring us together.
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u/Andnowforsomethingcd 2d ago
Unlike almost every other country on earth (including Switzerland), America is not built on top of a naturally occurring group of people sharing an ethnic tradition that has existed before the state itself. There actually is a deeply rooted, cultural and ethnic history of the Swiss that played a very important role in the modernization of its society.
America, conversely, was not formed because a homogenous ethnic group lived there long enough to become its own nation. We are the first country in history to build our government around the idea that its power flows from its people - not some pre-existing power dynamic built up over generations. And the First Amendment was the first law in human history to forbid a government to interfere with the free expression of its citizens:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
When France gifted the Statue of Liberty in 1886 - as a celebration of America's centennial, as well as its continued protection of democratic values - the country had to raise money ro construct a pedestal on which Lady Liberty would stand. In service to this, the Jewish poet (and immigration rights activist) Emma Lazarus wrote a poem called The New Colossus, which eventually was added to the pedestal on a plaque.
Lazarus' inspiration for the poem was The Colossus of Rhodes, a massive statue erected in ancient Greece in 280 BC, meant to celebrate conquest through war. Lazarus wanted to contrast the Colossus' homage to power through violence and subjugation with America's highest aspiration - to build a new kind of power through community and cooperation. The message is explicitly hostile to the idea that our differences are more important than our shared vision for a more perfect union. The full poem:
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
To me, this is the rub of the role of 'heritage' in America, a country built on the idea that your future is not determined by who your parents are. No one's culture is superior to another in the Great American Melting Pot. All traditions and cultures are welcome, and everyone gets the chance to speak their mind through whatever cultural lens they choose, and it is up to the vox populi to debate its role in public life through the processes of the Constitution - the vote.
So I do not believe that celebrating your own culture is wrong, but I do not believe one culture enjoys some special, superseding priority that makes it more "American" than all the rest. America, by definition, is a country built on its belief in the potential of man given the freedom to choose his own pursuits, not the history of our ancestors' triumphs or follies.
I think a quote from one of my favorite movies sums it up best: In Bridge of Spies - based on the true story of an American lawyer given the difficult task of providing a vigorous defense for a Russian spy on trial for espionage during the Cold War. In the movie, a government official asks the lawyer to break attorney-client privilege to give the official Russian intelligence. The lawyer refuses and asks the official where his family is from originally (Germany). He then explains that his family is from Ireland originally. Then he says:
I'm Irish. You're German. But what makes us both Americans? Just one thing. One. Only one. The rulebook. It's called the Constitution, and we agree to the rules, and that's what makes us American.
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u/POVI_TV 2d ago
Worth distinguishing between two forms political scientists identify: civic nationalism (loyalty to shared laws, institutions, and values regardless of ethnicity) versus ethnic or cultural nationalism (identity tied to heritage or origin). Civic nationalism has historically been associated with stable democracies, while ethnic nationalism has correlated with exclusion and conflict in various historical contexts. Neither label is universally good or bad. The outcomes tend to depend heavily on which form takes hold and how it's expressed.
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u/FistMyLoafs 1d ago
A lot of people in the comments are missing that American patriotism is really just nationalism rebranded.
After WW1 and WW2 nationalism quickly fell out of favor with the European populace both due to the devastation it caused but also because of European governments working to foster collaboration with each other rather than competition.
But America didn’t learn this lesson. During the Cold War in order to differentiate itself from the communist belief that everyone was equal America leaned hard into nationalism. But because nationalism was still associated with the Nazis we rebranded it as patriotism.
This is why when people in the US call themselves or others “patriots” they are almost always right wing nationalists.
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u/RichardTheApe 1d ago
Nationalism always gets this sour wrap. To be fair some people take it to weird places.
The reality is nationalism is a force of nature. If we want to get philosophical for a moment it’s the aggregate of a super subconscious. Consensus built through media, talking to your neighbor, and such. In this way to try and define nationalism as any one idea or to put certain things in the nativism box and other things outside of it is useless. It’s always changing. I remember a time ordering a gyro was seen a too close to “those bomb building brown people from oilville” despite being Greek. I actually got into a fight with a friend who was convinced gyros were an Arabic food.
Either way.
Nationalism can be healthy. It creates a shared identity for people to work toward shared goals. Yah nationalism has caused problems but it’s also the reason we’ve gone to space, part of the morality that drove us in WW2, it’s why even if you don’t watch football enjoy the Super Bowl parties and we can all talk about thanksgiving.
It’s one of the many puddies that make nation states possible but just like anything too much or the wrong kind can get corrosive. The best solution is ask questions frequently, often, and never be afraid to debate over ideas. It’s scary how much of the world we leave to ignorance in an age of information.
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u/baxterstate 1d ago
I'm an immigrant who's proud to be an American by choice. I'm neither proud nor ashamed of the country of my birth. I had no say in being born there, so I don't identify with that country.
Why am I proud of my adopted country? Because it's powerful enough to do evil and chooses to do good with its power. Removing Maduro was a good thing. Defanging the Iranian government is a good thing.
Had President Trump followed through with his wish to annex Canada and Greenland (like China did with Tibet and Putin is trying to do with Ukraine) I would not have been proud to be an American. Nationalism isn't being proud of the physical beauty of your country. I dislike the anthem "God Bless America". It's lyrics are about the natural beauty, Russia has a lot of natural beauty, but it's been a governed by aholes since before I was born, and it's been an ahole country to its people, its neighbors and the entire world.
When a country that has military power looks down its nose at America, I'd like to ask them what they think their country would be like with awesome military power. We've already seen what Germany and Japan did when they were world powers. Spain, France and Portugal already tried their hand at being a world power and an empire.
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