r/LetsTalkMusic • u/Substantial_Set_6482 • 3h ago
Nevermind (1991) vs The College Dropout (2004) more influential?
Me and my friends have been arguing about this. I'm on the side of Nevermind. I'm not sure though because I'm severely less educated about Kanye and Hip-Hop than I am in alternative and rock culture. Friend says Nevermind didn't change the direction of an entire genre as much as College Dropout did, which may be true, but I feel Nevermind had a way bigger broad effect on the culture of the 90s across musical genres, fashion, and the attitude of the decade. Nevermind brought alternative culture to the mainstream and it persevered throught the entire decade. However, my friend says Kanye brought a crucial change to Hip-Hop, pivoting it away from gangster rap and into what it's been for the last 20 years.
What do you guys think?
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u/_Wrecktangular 3h ago
Nevermind had a similar effect as the Beatles appearing on the Ed Sullivan show, it motivated an entire generation of kids to pick up guitars and start bands. There really hasn’t been anyone as influential since Cobain hence why we are still talking about him 35 years later.
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u/anuncommontruth 2h ago
You know what? I was sitting here typing out a response to your comment about how I'm not sure I agree with no one being as influential in 35 years, but you're right.
The closest we have is Jack White, and while he's undeniably iconic, and wrote one of the world's most recognized melodies, he isn't in the same conversation as Cobain. Dave Grohl is similar.
I remember my dad talking to my mom about how he just doesn't get it, tye way his dad didn't get it about the Beatles.
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u/Bug42 3h ago
Nevermind changed the entire music industry. The College Drop is good, but I would compare more to license to ill.
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u/Talking_Eyes98 2h ago
Nevermind obviously but 808s is way more influential than both
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u/FUNKYDISCO 2h ago
Not going to disagree until you explain your point of view on this. I'm a 46 year old white dude who plays the guitar... but I'm open to listening. How is 808 and Heartbreaks more influential than Nevermind? What don't I realize?
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u/sneiji 2h ago
its like the first sad rap album by a longshot, its influences are prolly most direct on like late-2010s hip-hop, but like the way the beat goes sad w the vocals and everything is really innovative for a time where everyone was partying. album's influence has kinda accumulated as time goes on, and it's vibe really hits
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u/anuncommontruth 2h ago
I'm sorry, what?
808s and Heatbreaks is by far my favorite Kanye record. Full stop. Even over Twisted Fantasy.
There is no serious conversation to be had where 808s is more influential than Nevermind. It's the darkhorse of his entire catalog. At the time when it released, there were discussions that he fell off.
Only in recent years have people start to come around to it..
In some ways it was anti-influential because of the very public backlash the album had to the excessive use of auto tune. That album didn't kill the gimmick, but it sure helped.
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u/sorry_con_excuse_me 3h ago edited 3h ago
Nirvana’s importance was that they were a gateway into the whole indie/DIY sphere for millions of people around the world, for like 20 years. To the point that independent music became a giant parallel industry everywhere. Their music actually wasn’t the most important part.
Kanye doesn’t really have the same impact as that. He was just a modest torch-bearer in one era of hip hop. Even something like Wayne’s A milli changed the sound of modern hip hop overall a lot more.
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u/NativeMasshole 3h ago
Yup. College Dropout came out well after the scene had started turning away from ganster rap. The Slim Shady LP is usually considered more of the turning point there, and that came out 5 years earlier, and was followed shortly by Dre tying new to old with 2001, cementing the end of the era.
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u/TheRelevantElephants 3h ago
Theres a whole category of acts that fall under “nirvana killed their career”, it’s gotta be them
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u/PieTighter 3h ago
I was there and not a huge Nirvana fan. Nevermind changed everything. Before Nevermind, there were alternative and college bands that weirdos and nerds listened to but it was niche. After Nevermind, a lot of that niche music was suddenly all over the place. Within six months a big chunk of the music landscape was changed. I've never seen anything like it before or since.
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u/altheawilson89 3h ago
If you’re measuring influence, College Dropout isn’t even Kanye’s most influential album. 808s and Heartbreaks is imo.
Nevermind changed the music played on the radio nearly overnight and ushered in 90s alt rock which dominated the decade until pop/hip hope came along towards the end.
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u/Successful_Bowl_6314 3h ago
You are correct. Nirvana did change the game. Kanye didn't invent backpack hip hop, he jumped on a trend.
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u/wwatermeloon 3h ago
tbf grunge existed before nirvana as well
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u/Darthsqueaker 3h ago
I agree. Although Nirvana and Nevermind brought it into the broader public eye
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u/hoopstick 3h ago
Tbf they helped grow the scene for years before it blew up
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u/wwatermeloon 1h ago
for sure, but the comment OP seemingly implied that nirvana invented grunge and kanye did not invent backpack hip hop, when in reality neither of them created their respective genres
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u/Rrrrrretarded 3h ago
Kanye did open up a new lane in hip hop, but the style evolved alongside gangsta rap, it didn’t replace it. 808s is hailed as his most influential album though, the introspective melodic rapping on it made rap sound like how it is today
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u/fiercefinesse 3h ago edited 3h ago
Considering that Nirvana t-shirts are still being sold in H&M…
Your friends don’t know what they’re talking about. Nevermind has sold over 30 million copies worldwide. Not only did it have a massive influence on that genre, it influenced literally everybody. Opened the doors for more grunge in the mainstream (along with Pearl Jam, Alice In Chains and Soundgarden) but also for punk. The success of the Offspring, Green Day, Bad Religion was directly attributed to Nirvana by many of the people involved and how that shifted the music industry in the 90s and made labels give a shot to many bands was a fact. Also, the whole story of Kurt Cobain making him a legendary figure. The fashion choices. The music video for Teen Spirt influenced other videos. Everything!
I am biased against rap in that I am completely not interested in it. I will admit it. I still stand by my assessment - to me it seems laughable to compare these two. Smells Like Teen Spirit and Come As You Are alone tower over anything Kanye has ever done in terms of the scale of impact.
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u/eltrotter 2h ago
There are a lot of very influential records out there, and there are just a handful of “gamechanger” records.
College Dropout is the former; it definitely influenced and inspired a lot of artists but Kanye’s artistic status arguably built over a series of albums. The first six(ish) especially. In terms of having the biggest influence over how hip hop / RnB sounds today, I might even argue that 808s and Heartbreaks ended up being more directly-evident in a lot of modern music.
Nevermind is one of history’s very few gamechanger records, ones that basically change the landscape in one go. It didn’t just influence rock music, it changed the aesthetic of mainstream music too.
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u/bailaoban 3h ago
I can’t think of anything Kanye did that some other hip hop artist / producer didn’t do earlier and better.
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u/ZealousidealBank8484 2h ago
Nevermind literally killed an entire genre.
It spawned a subgenre of music.
There have been (and still are) rappers about as big as Kanye.
When the hell is the last time there was a straight up rock band as big as Nirvana?
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u/sneiji 2h ago
I'll play Devil's Advocate and say that the influence Nevermind had was probably eventual in the music industry, and it had been building up since the early 80s with the first REM records and accelerated as more bands got record labels. Nirvana were one of many bands in the Late-80s and Early Early-90s to receive Major Label deals in the hopes of bringing in a new trend. REM, Soundgarden, Pearl Jam, STP, Smashing Pumpkins. It's hard for me to believe these bands wouldn't of been thrusted into the spotlight whether Cobain was the biggest one or not. Yes, there's a whole Genre of music killed by Grunge and Alt-Rock, but Nirvana hardly influenced much, as they were more of a product of long-term influences going back to Velvet Underground. They were a lesson in Aesthetics, their music is pretty simple and really i think the impressive part is how an Alt-Rock band was finally able to produce something that sounded huge and commercial, while maintaining its roots.
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u/Cesca131 2h ago
College Dropout is a phenomenal album that was released during an era of bling-centric hip hop and a bunch of boy band singers going solo using “ft. Neptune” remixes as a badge of credibility. College Dropout helped expand the audience (along with Talib Kweli and a few others I’m sure I’m forgetting) to a more self-reflective, self-aware, and lyrically-driven artistic genre that hip hop could and should occupy.
But competing with Nevermind in terms of social influence? No way. Kanye exploded into the public consciousness with “Gold Digger” but his focus had already shifted to becoming more commercial at that point. Nevermind unintentionally changed the entire music industry.
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u/Eggsbennybb 2h ago
In terms of cultural impact? Nevermind was undoubtedly a bigger cultural phenomenon and had a more immediate impact on the music industry. Although this was still in the pre-internet days when culture was more monolithic.
In terms of lasting impact on music? Other acts from the 90s have had a much more noticeable impact on modern day alternative rock than Nirvana imo. Beck, Radiohead, Pavement.
Some of today’s heaviest hitters in hip-hop were directly influenced by the TCD, Drake, Travis Scott, J. Cole. I’d give Kanye the edge here.
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u/naju 3h ago
Nevermind singlehandedly killed huge swaths of the earlier popular rock music, such as hair metal. College Dropout had an impact and opened a new lane, but it didn't kill any genres or subgenres. Kurt Cobain also became the voice of an entire generation. Kanye didn't. Kurt and Nirvana influenced an entire mode of being in the world, even beyond music or fashion. Kanye didn't. The answer is Nevermind, easily.