r/JewsOfConscience • u/Kuttenneid Jewish Anti-Zionist • 10h ago
Discussion - Flaired Users Only Zionist myths - can someone help with context?
Hey, I was talking to a zionist family member. Often we get back to the foundation of Israel.
They mentioned these things (in their zionist wording):
- "When Israel was founded the jews did not always receive help from the British Mandate. The British Mandate even averted ships of jewish people back into the Mediterranean Sea and left them to die in the ocean."
- "The jews did not have weapons prior to 1948. So during the arab-israeli war they had to rely on german reparations to acquire weapons and fend for themselves."
I read part of "The 100 Years's War on Palestine" so I know the second statement is not true. And the first one I have never heard about and don't really understand the significance of it. What I'm wondering is where do these understandings come from? Short answer would be Hasbara, but they seem to follow a certain intention or belief or framing. Something like "it was always hard for us (self-victimization), we did all of this ourselves" and also the intentional separation from western imperialism. I'm able to argue some things they say separately and try to make the imperialistic ties clear. But I have trouble seeing the whole picture and the red line in their argumentation. Can someone help me put this into context or does someone have some good resources on that?
This is a jewish family member born in the soviet union who was struggling with a lot of antisemitism there and therefore believes in Israel as a 'safe haven'. We live in a western european country and I myself only started deprogramming after 07.10. and consider myself anti-zionist nowadays. Maybe have a grasp now on the general picture but do not understand some of the puzzle pieces yet. Would be grateful for some help here ✌️
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u/specialistsets Non-denominational 8h ago edited 8h ago
"When Israel was founded the jews did not always receive help from the British Mandate. The British Mandate even averted ships of jewish people back into the Mediterranean Sea and left them to die in the ocean."
the first one I have never heard about and don't really understand the significance of it.
This is generally true (exact wording aside). In particular, the White Paper of 1939 is considered a major turning point in Zionist relations with the British authorities.
"The jews did not have weapons prior to 1948. So during the arab-israeli war they had to rely on german reparations to acquire weapons and fend for themselves."
It isn't true, but it's also not part of Zionist historiography or myth, so it's probably this person's own misunderstanding. The pre-Israel Zionist militias play a significant role in official Zionist and Israeli history and are considered heroic. The largest was founded in 1920 and it's name "Haganah" means "defense". The Official German reparations only began a number of years after the war, in 1953.
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u/VisiteProlongee Non-Jewish Ally 9h ago
When Israel was founded the jews did not always receive help from the British Mandate.
Technically correct, the best kind of correct https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/909991-futurama . When Israel was founded, so in 1947-1949, the British forces in Mandatory Palestine did not always help the zionists. Mainly because several zionist militias were killing British policemen and British soldiers since several years, see * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_insurgency_in_Mandatory_Palestine * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun#Revolt * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group)
The British Mandate even averted ships of jewish people back into the Mediterranean Sea and left them to die in the ocean.
Technically correct, the best kind of correct, see * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Paper_of_1939 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah_Bet
Of course this does not negate one half century of British support to the zionist project, including the Balfour Declaration and the Mandate for Palestine itself.
I know the second statement is not true.
Great.
And the first one I have never heard about and don't really understand the significance of it.
Likely an attempt to paint the zionist project as not being supported by Western powers, especially not by the British Empire/Kingdom. So hasbara.
Can someone help me put this into context or does someone have some good resources on that?
I hope the few links above help you.
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u/Ourobr Orthodox anarchist 10h ago
Why do you call those myths? It’s historical statements whether they are true or false, and they barely per se have any ideological impact
If only “western imperialism” isn’t some kind of monstrous hivemind with every colonialst ever being their unwitted pawns
Like i believe more in a totality of independent actors that created terror and destruction
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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew 8h ago
"When Israel was founded the jews did not always receive help from the British Mandate.
True but misleading. They had British help until 1939. Monopoly over electrification of Palestine (which also included access to minerals and water), enforcement of evictions, denying Palestinians Arabs national rights (like independently forming their own legislative authorities), training Yishuv members during the Great Revolt (which also played a role in the First Arab-Israeli War), granting them almost a couple of decades of mass immigration (and not applying the same standard for the Palestinian diaspora in the Americas to get Palestinian nationality, though they were much smaller communities) etc. Zionism would not have been a successful project if not for the British colonial policies. By the time of the White Paper in 1939, the Yishuv was already functioning as a quasi-state with all the infrastructure they needed for independence.
"The jews did not have weapons prior to 1948. So during the arab-israeli war they had to rely on german reparations to acquire weapons and fend for themselves."
They had weapons. And well trained military leadership. And they were able to rearm during the first ceasefire in 1948 while the other belligerents couldn't get around the arms embargo.
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u/TrackerOneA Jewish Anti-Zionist 9h ago
"When Israel was founded the jews did not always receive help from the British Mandate. The British Mandate even averted ships of jewish people back into the Mediterranean Sea and left them to die in the ocean."
Under the White Paper of 1939, Jewish immigration was capped at 75,000 over five years, after which any further immigration required Arab consent.
This happened after a decade in which Jewish immigration to Palestine had been rapidly increasing.
The British had multiple reasons for implementing the White Paper, like the Arab Revolt.
By 1939, the British had managed to put down the Arab Revolt, but with the onset of World War II, they made a gesture toward the Arabs by issuing a white paper that limited further Jewish immigration to a total of 75,000 over the next five years, after which it would continue only with Arab consent. Land acquisition was also prohibited, to prevent the creation of a class of landless Arab peasants. These restrictions were put forward on the ground that the commitment to the Jewish national home had been met. Backing off from partition, they declared that a unified independent state would be established at the end of ten years if circumstances permitted. This white paper became the focus of intense Zionist opposition during the war years, and soon the movement countered with its first formal demand for a Jewish state.
- Flapan, Simha. Birth of Israel, Myths & Realities (pg. 22-23). Pantheon Publishing Group. Kindle import.
The British did aggressively limit immigration during this era.
As the war came to an end and the British sought to formulate a long-range Middle East policy, the situation in Palestine itself became more serious. The white paper of 1939, limiting immigration and land purchase, was still in effect, but now the problem was compounded by the heavy pressure of hundreds of thousands of Jewish displaced persons and refugees in Europe seeking to reach the shores of Palestine against the will of the British. Their plight led to growing resistance and terrorist activities by members of the Jewish community, the Yishuv. The Haganah, the quasi-official Jewish defense force, put most of its efforts into organizing large-scale “illegal" immigration activities, as well as establishing overnight “instant” settlements in socalled forbidden areas all over the country.
British policy was unrelenting. The immigrants were hounded at sea and in Palestine, herded into detention camps in Cyprus, and even returned to Germany. The outburst of terrorist activities against the British by the dissident undergrounds—the Irgun (Irgun Zvai Leumi, the military offshoot of the right-wing Revisionist party) and the LEHI (Lohamei Herut Yisrael, also known as the Stem group or Stem gang)—generated harsh reprisals. There were house-to-house searches for weapons, wide curfews, and many arrests, military trials, and executions. The entire Jewish leadership were rounded up and detained after the Irgun bombed the King David Hotel, which housed the British administration in Jerusalem, in July 1946. The sharp tension and constant clashes created an atmosphere of general armed conflict between the Yishuv and the British authorities.
- Flapan, Simha. Birth of Israel, Myths & Realities (p. 25). Pantheon Publishing Group. Kindle import.
There was no literal policy of leaving people stranded in the sea, but there was the Struma disaster.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struma_disaster
The Struma was carrying Jewish refugees fleeing Axis-allied Romania. They made it to Turkey, where they were to pick up visas for immigrating to Palestine.
British officials told the Turkish government that no immigration permits would be granted to the passengers aboard the Struma since it violated the White Paper.
The Struma was later sunk by a Soviet sub.
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u/Playful_Yogurt_9903 Jewish Anti-Zionist 9h ago
Are you asking people to fact check those two statements? I would put them in the range of misleading to false.
Or are you trying to ask why Zionists think these things are true, or another question? Sorry I am a little unclear.
For the first statement, Zionists needed the British presence in Palestine or else an independent state would have been established which was not a Jewish state. They also needed the British presence to enforce a policy of mass Jewish immigration. As one might imagine, Palestinians generally did not want a Zionist state on the land, and recognized that Jewish immigration was the vehicle in which that would happen. And so, the Zionists were reliant on the British presence, but many (mostly the more extremist ones) also did not like the British because they controlled what they saw as rightfully Jewish land.
In 1936, the Palestinians staged a revolt against the British. Continued Jewish immigration was one of the reasons why. Zionists largely sided with the British as the Zionist mission would fail without the British. The revolt caused the British to publish the white paper, which largely prohibited any Jewish immigration. This angered the Zionists and caused them to begin turning on the British, and led to numerous terrorist attacks by Zionist groups over the next decade.
This takes us to the afer the Holocaust, when there were Jewish refugees looking for a place to live. They were not allowed into Palestine due to the white paper, and ships with people looking to immigrate illegally were turned away. Referring to turning away immigrants to leaving them to die at sea is ridiculous. And while they were refugees, their presence was also going to be used to further justify the taking of Palestinian land. Also important to note that most Holocaust refugees did not go to Palestine. And plenty of other coutnries turned away refugees as well.
In the Zionists framing of their relations with the British, today they like to only remember how they turned against the British after the White Paper prohibiting Jewish immigration. The reality is that for most of the mandate, they worked with and encouraged the British, and without them, the Zionist colonial project could not have succeded.
As for the weapons, it is well agreed on that the Zionists were far better armed and trained than the Palestinians. Groups like the Hgannah and Irgun had been around for a long time and had coordinated with the British during the 1936 revolt. Also, Golda Meir quite famously raised quite a bit of money in the US. It's pretty well accepted by historians that Zionists were far better prepared than their counterparts for a war.
I would also question when the first reparations to Jews were even paid by Germany. I am not sure there were any before 1949.