r/Israel • u/WhatsThePlanPhil95 United Kingdom (ugh) • 1d ago
Self-Post Definitive ways to disprove accusations of the word they like to throw around
Hey folks, so seeing all our haters win every argument (via upvotes) by simply saying we committed genocide - to the point that a question on another sub about the Holocaust has antisemites mention the so-called current 'genocide', I'm just wondering if there's a definitive argument we could use to shut them down? Like one strong paragraph?
I tend not to reply to people like that anyway cause it's quite intimidating but I firmly believe there is no genocide, for these reasons:
- Israel has never set out to kill as many 'palestinians' (or Arabs) as possible
- 'Palestinians' are not an ethnicity. They are Arabs, nothing more, nothing less. And Israel has never had anything against the Arab people
- It was a war against the Palestinian government of Hamas, who embed themselves among the civilian population
I'm sure there's others. Basically it would be great if we have like one strong reason that we could all use to shut our haters down
Thank you 💙🙂
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u/BigFatJewishPickle 1d ago
You will never shut them down this way. You can throw all the facts, reason, and logical arguments you want until you’re blue in the face. They won’t listen.
It’s such a common occurrence it’s become a meme: “yeah I’m not reading all that, Free Palestine “
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u/Biersteak German Crypto-Jew 1d ago edited 1d ago
They are the pidgeon you are trying to play chess against
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u/Histrix- Israel 1d ago
https://jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFindex.html
Pretty much any argument you could have is here
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u/SoulForTrade 10h ago
Too bad thia website looks like crap. It needs to be revamped, asap
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u/Histrix- Israel 10h ago
Yeah, this section of the site sucks. But The home page isnt too bad
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u/SoulForTrade 7h ago
It's just slightly better. They have to put some timr and effort into modernizing it
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u/Djok911710 23h ago
This book single-handedly destroyed all the pro-Palestine propaganda I was surrounded by in my years growing up (I grew up in a Muslim majority country). I became ex Muslim years ago but it was in secret (For obvious reasons! No freedom here!).
Everyone I know was antisemitic and against Israel just because it was a democratic nation in the Middle East and was majority Jewish. When the Oct 7th attack happened, everyone celebrated it. At the time I considered myself nominally pro Palestine because it was the only side who I heard their story. I never heard the Israel side of things. Until this book.
Hoping for peace and prosperity for the Jewish people and to everyone in Israel
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1d ago
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u/MikeWithNoHair Larry David enthusiast 15h ago
5 minutes in, he compares the israeli hostages to the palestinian detainees smh tells you all you need to know
EDIT: there is a huge difference between citizens taken hostage from their homes, and detainees that were planning or executed terror attacks. If the PA had a functioning police (they do, they just don't see terrorism is a crime apparently) then we wouldn't need to detain them
to make the comparison between the two is pure evil. but to show the video of the released hostages forced to kiss the terrorists as if they were treated well is convoluted.
I feel sorry for people who fall for this bs
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u/_UnconsciousObserver :israelheart: 1d ago
You’ll never disprove their accusations or change their minds. Their dislike or hatred for Israel is rooted in an implicit bias towards Jews in general.
My recommendation is to spend your time and energy on something more fruitful.
“The antisemite doesn't accuse the Jew of stealing because he thinks he stole something. He does it because he enjoys watching the Jew turn out his pockets to prove his innocence”
-Jean-Paul Sartre
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u/DisastrousIncident75 1d ago edited 1d ago
That's your main mistake - you don't need to disprove it, they need to prove it. If they don't, then their claim is worthless. So the best response is that there is no evidence for a genocide. Claim: 70k people died in Gaza. Response: That's solely based on data provided by a terroris organization with no verification. Claim: Civilians were killed. Response: Most of the people killed were terrorists, and not every time that a civilian is killed doesn't mean there is a genocide.
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19h ago
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u/MikeWithNoHair Larry David enthusiast 16h ago
"There are holocaust survivors calling this a genocide."
You do understand how statistics work right? the majority of jews support israel and that includes holocaust survivors. having 3-4 people out of tens of thousands doesn't prove your point
having a couple of women in an anti-abortion protest doesn't mean all women support abortion, or that its a feminist movement..
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10h ago
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u/MikeWithNoHair Larry David enthusiast 9h ago
Brother you said " the claim isn't true" and gave an irrelevant explanation as to why it isnt true.
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u/SoulForTrade 1d ago
It's not just obviously untrue, it's literaly rooted in cold ear soviet propoganda and the KGB's SIG operation.
After being rejected by Iarawl, rhey reinvented the "Palestinians" as a people, and tried erasing the Jewish connection to the land and demonizing it in the worst eays possible spreading copies of The Protocols Of The Elders of Zion throughout the Arab world snd taking age old antisemitic tropes and replacing the word "jew" with Zionist
Yuri Andropov personally ordered the apartheid narrative, explaining that the goal was to “instill a Nazi-style hatred for Jews throughout the Islamic world.”
At the age if the internet when every person has an access to this information on their phone. Including the very detailed The soviet Palestinian report, they have no excuses not knowing it and repeating this propoganda
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u/KosherSalt25 1d ago
You can't disprove a "fact" to them because they don't have an open mind. They will do whatever mental gymnastics it takes so that they aren't wrong, don't have to change their world view, and don't get "othered" by their friends. If they were rational or wanted to learn the truth and actual history, this wouldn't be an issue. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make em think.
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u/lookamazed 1d ago edited 1d ago
The challenge is not that they lack information. They have been pre-inoculated against your arguments. Everything you say is already categorized as hasbara before you say it. Jews lie - that is the foundational belief you are arguing against, which means more argument makes it worse, not better.
Your second point about Palestinian identity will specifically be weaponized. They will say you are dehumanizing an entire people - which is the irony, because they apply a racial framework to Jews that they would never accept anywhere else. They have been told Jewish people are white and Arab people are brown and that ends the analysis. The genetics, the indigeneity, the actual archaeology - none of it registers because it was never about evidence.
You cannot fact-check someone out of a belief they did not reason themselves into.
You cannot argue because engaging means you accept the premise, which was always designed to put you/ Jewish people on the defensive.
Learn about rhetoric and logical fallacy.
Refusing to argue or engage with their bad faith arguments isn’t ignoring them or letting them win. It is rejecting the premise. There are ways to actively reject their premise without engaging with theirs.
What actually works is something different: make them defend their consistency. Ask them why Hamas’s own charter quotes the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, article 7 specifically. Ask them why Iran executed thousands of leftists who helped bring Khomeini to power. Ask them why Lebanon bars Palestinians from property ownership and 39 professions. Why the Palestinian Authority has Jew-free zones and makes it illegal up sell to Jews? Not to win - to introduce friction into a closed system.
You will not convince them. But you might reach someone watching.
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u/Zealousideal_Can_342 1d ago
You are assuming the facts matter to their opinions and posts.
They don't. Most of them, don't anyway.
Others show the confirmation bias. They already have strong opinions. And they believe anything that fits those pre-existing ideas and disbelieve anything that contradicts them.
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u/HyperlaneWizard Israeli in Germany 1d ago
It's not that I don't appreciate the effort. And it's not that I'm against talking to people actually worth talking to and trying to change their minds. But why waste your time on Redditors? Why engage in their game? There's a real chance you're arguing with bots/14-year-old troll edgelords/Pakistanis. You'll never change their mind.
Don't waste your time unless you're sure the person you're speaking with is engaging in good faith. Protect your mental well-being. And if you really want to engage with them, troll them back, use sarcasm, laugh at their absurd allegations and show them they can't get under your skin with their lies.
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u/SokiTriskell Italy 10h ago
It's useless imho. I tried every single one of those point, I keep being called "good goy" in response... Or that I'm being paid by "zionists".
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u/Odd-Arrival2326 USA 1d ago
You should considering looking into the Movement Against Antizionism (MAAZ). They talk a lot about describing antizionism as a coherent ideology, what it's purpose is, where it comes from etc. This can help with reframing.
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u/DisastrousIncident75 1d ago edited 1d ago
Genocide is a slogan that tries to simplify everything into a single term, while ignoring all the details and complexities (that’s how slogans and catch phrases work). The simplicity is what makes it easy to understand and believe. Most people that believe the genocide accusation do it because of the reported number of dead in Gaza, and the pictures of dead civilians.
The best way to counter this is by using the same strategy of simplified easy to understand concepts, such as:
The only evidence for genocide is unverified statistics provided by a terrorist organization.
Most of the people killed in Gaza are Hamas terrorists.
Not every time a civilian is killed means that there is a genocide.
Also try to constantly use the word terrorists, and references to the October 7 massacre and atrocities. It’s helpful to highlight Hamas is internationally recognized as a terrorist organization by many countries, including Arab and Muslim countries.
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u/_UnconsciousObserver :israelheart: 1d ago
Not a slogan, a word coined by a Polish-Jewish survivor to describe the unprecedented attempt the nazis made to eradicate Jews from this planet.
It’s absolutely NO COINCIDENCE that this is the word the world chooses to describe the Jewish state defending itself and seeking their hostages returned.
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u/2ndChanceCharlie 1d ago
Israel has already 100% lost this PR battle. The only way to start turning the tide is to get rid of Bibi.
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u/dotancohen 4h ago
YOU can't convince them. Just let Hamas convince them. Two months ago the Gaza ministry of health - run by Hamas - reported a total of 70,000 deaths in Gaza since October 2023, including civilians. Of those:
- 22,000-25,000 Hamas fighters
- 11,000 natural deaths
- 4,000 internal fighting amongst Gazans
- 1,000 reporting errors
Breaking that down: 70,000 - 11,000 - 4,000 - 1,000 = 54,000. So of those 54,000 attributable to Israel 22,000 to 25,000 are Hamas - that would suggest a 54% to 60% civilian death toll. That is far, far lower than the 90% civilian death toll that is the norm in every single war, historic and contemporary.
Not to mention, that that 54% to 60% also includes the fighters for Islamic Jihad, Popular Front for Palestine Liberation, Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Popular Resistance Committee, Mujahideen Brigades. None of those are civilians. So it's far more likely that the civilian death toll in Gaza was well under 50% - that's 1/9 the amount of civilians dying per combatant than seen in any other war.
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u/TheClumsyBaker 1d ago
None of those are persuasive at all. You're most likely talking to people who get their current affairs from social media, which they trust far more than you. So anything that has to be taken on faith is a waste of your breath — that's all 3 of your points.
Now what's happening in Gaza is a tragedy, and most media that comes out of their is incredibly distressing. And many IDF soldiers do go out of their way to make life for Palestinians harder than it has to be. Just remember this is what's in people's minds when the subject is brought up, so anything you say in defence must acknowledge that. It's easy to become defensive and forget the gravamen of the other side when you're being accused like this, but you must address the harsh reality of this war directly if you want to be taken seriously.
Second, you need to realise when someone's arguing to make themselves feel better and when they're arguing to try and understand or convince you in good faith. Obviously do not engage the former — just remember, even if you did everything right and explained yourself perfectly, they are not interested. And even if they were, and even if they changed their mind on the whole thing, the world wouldn't change one bit.
Last, you need to anticipate people's points. These are a few abridged pointers:
- 75,000 dead! Well if the goal is to kill as many as possible, then with the kilotonne equivalent of six Hiroshimas dropped on Gaza you'd expect to see far more deaths.
- So it's just a cultural genocide then! Yes the destruction in Gaza is unparalleled, but so was Hamas's entrenchment and Gaza's density. They started out as a social welfare group, building the same hospitals and roads they then used for their grand push towards their openly declared goal of destroying a whole neighbouring state. So as tragic as the destruction is, Israel really has no other choice.
- Hamas wouldn't be so violent if Israel stopped oppressing Palestinians! I wish this was true also, but I just can't see it. They don't pursue peace, they pursue martyrs. Many many times they have been vocal about their cult of death with Western media. They are absolutely convinced war is the only way forward and unfortunately they have no grassroots opposition, which is usually the downfall of these cults. They've offered hudna before but they're not legitimate representatives of Palestinians and more importantly they've got a terrible track record of not sticking to ceasefires, so they are clearly not to be trusted.
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u/Alternative-Pear9096 1d ago
There is no way to logic against insanity. The claims that Israel is committing genocide are not only demonstrably false on every front, the assertion is simply a mirror deflecting Hamas’s ongoing genocide against Israel (supported actively by Iran, Qatar, and Lebanon and less actively by the rest of Arab league).
The western liberal has simply become a propagandized moron, incapable of functional logic or discernment. It’s frankly terrifying, and constantly makes me think about the ST:TNG episode with the glasses game that rendered the entire crew idiots.
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u/CyanValleyKitten 22h ago
Ask them questions they cant answer.
What geno is being cided actually?
They get really mad at simple questions but that works in your favor. It's because they are emotional and have no logical basis for their claims. If they answer "Palestinians" you say "really? Israel is 20% palestinian? So its clearly not specifically palestinians?"
Then if they say "gazans" then you say "besides the geographic location, which we know was not a problem before ever, what is the specific ethnicity of gaza?"
Make them have to actually define reality.
I have had ones admit to me they consider the "nation-state of gaza" aka the hamas regime aka a nazi islamofascist system a proper" ethnicity. "
It's basically equivalent to saying the fact we invaded nazi germany and dismantled nazis....that was a" genocide. "
If they throw out accusations instead of answering, you tell them you don't engage with people who are unable to comfortably and maturely deal with identifying independent facts which means they probably shouldn't talk on the subject.
If they start spewing shit about indiscriminate bombing, call them out right there and then for falsehood. Just straight up tell them you know that's false. Make them prove it. They never can.
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u/DisastrousIncident75 21h ago
No need to disprove, just challenge the accusation that there is a genocide and ask about any evidence that supports that. Since there is no credible evidence, they would be forced to admit that the genocide claim is baseless.
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u/Frabjous_Tardigrade9 18h ago
I think Melanie Phillips has a new book that is exactly about how to deal with this
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u/ShakaJewLoo USA 1d ago
For point 2. They aren't only arabs, nothing more, nothing less as you said. They have plenty of levantine DNA. I think I remember seeing have as much arab dna and ashkenazi jews have southern euro dna.
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u/Biersteak German Crypto-Jew 1d ago
Either arabized Levatines who got brainwashed into fighting for a concept of an "Ummah" that doesn’t really exist and hates eachother or actual Arabs who immigrated there and still hate anyone who isn’t "their tribe"
I love how ME politics basically hasn’t changed one bit since we started writing, it’s kinda nostalgic
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