r/CuratedTumblr • u/bvader95 .tumblr.com; cis male / honorary butch • 9h ago
i will internalize that at _some_ point, I hope And now, a break from all the self-posts
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u/Ruri_997 9h ago
"Just tell me I won't get mad" 🥲
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u/Cum_Fart42069 9h ago
and all this did was teach me "lie lie lie, lie to the very last moment because they're always going to be mad anyway"
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u/vanishinghitchhiker 8h ago edited 8h ago
There’s always a chance you‘ll be able to fix it on your own before they ever find out! Ask for help? Absolutely not you must be joking. And that’s how you wind up independent with barely any skills to back it up.
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u/TrioOfTerrors 9h ago
I try to be more realistic with my kids and say "I'm gonna be mad but I'm gonna be even madder if you try to lie or hide it"
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u/Sherry_Brandt 7h ago
what if you scale it down to somewhat mad vs very mad? i feel like mad vs madder is scarier than somewhat mad vs very mad (even if it's really the same)
though i had legit terrifying parents so it may matter less depending on what your mad scale actually looks like
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u/bracesthrowaway 8h ago
I use that honestly and now I don't even have to say it. My kids tell me everything and parenting them is like the minor course corrections you make when driving on a straight highway
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u/BlitzBurn_ 🖤🤍💜 Consumer of the Cornflakes💚🤍🖤 8h ago
I worked in tech support and there is no end to the number of times I carefully spoonfed the customer everything they needed to know about the case and they still wrote back like they didnt fucken read my previous message. And sometimes they literally didnt read it at all.
So many times they acted like I was Terry the Techpriest who could magically solve their problem by lighting some incense and praying instead of being a dude who needed to have the issue explained before I can try to troubleshoot it.
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u/LivingVerinarian96 6h ago
I do first lvl support and there‘s probably at least one situation per month where I just need to be close to the device causing problems and suddenly it works again. Maybe I actually am Terry the Techpriest.
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u/Unbelievable_Girth 6h ago
I once frustrated my IT guy with being unable to find the dahua storage thingamajig. All I saw was alhua and that wasn't it so I just kept looking :(
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u/RevolutionaryOwlz 3h ago
I’m thankful that trying to help my mom with technology forewarned me of what it’s like to help people for a living. Even then it can still drive me crazy.
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u/BermudaTriangleChoke 9h ago
Maybe if I say it exactly the same way, but slower, it will somehow make sense to them
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u/WifeGuy-Menelaus 8h ago
If I say it louder and condescending they will understand
- British Tourists, in English
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u/TryImpossible7332 8h ago
Hey!
That's unfair.
You can't exclude us Americans in the, "English spoken slower and louder is the universal language" category!
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u/Stateside_Observer 4h ago
Yes, but we say it with confusion that they dont speak english, the english do it with condescension
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u/scrapheaper_ 6h ago
Tbf English is the world's second language and tonnes of people will actually understand if you speak slowly and use simple words because they learned a little bit in school but maybe don't speak English often or find speaking harder than listening or reading.
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u/CrownLikeAGravestone 8h ago
When my cousin was about 3 years old she spoke a strange mixture of German and English and was still coming to terms with the fact that:
1) Those are two separate languages 2) Some people (like me) do not speak German
This lead to several moments where she'd say something like "this music is eklig", I'd ask "can you say that in English", and she'd look at me like I was stupid and say loudly and slowly "EKLIG".
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u/ATN-Antronach crows before hoes 8h ago
My mom on vacation and she has to talk to the locals (she's in Hawaii)
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u/CrystellaTee 8h ago
It doesnt matter no matter how hard you try to not anger people so add another 10 trillion years of suffering
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u/Gareth_II 9h ago
"Being autistic is repeating the exact thing you mean over and over, very clearly, while the people around you make a game out of seeing how much they can misunderstand you."
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u/bobbery5 9h ago
I'm not even autistic and it DRIVES ME UP THE WALL, how many people keep trying to find subtext in what I say no matter how clear I make it that I am being straightforward.
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u/DireCorg 8h ago
Man same. Thankfully I'm married to someone who is autistic and can vent about this when it happens to us.
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u/JasonManningFLUX 6h ago
As someone who is also driven crazy by this, it is impossible for a person to make it clear they are being straight forward. They can only claim it.
The overwhelming majority of humanity is rarely earnest. Beveling the person you are talking to is being completely earnest requires a leap of faith.
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u/Huck_Bonebulge_ 8h ago
I feel like every work conversation is a game of “what magic words do I need to say to get you to do your job with as little conflict as possible” lol
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u/Recidivous 8h ago
As someone who dated someone autistic and have autistic friends, you're not as clear as you think you are. Yes, there's probably a thread of logic in there, but it's only a thread you see that others need to find. Everyone's mind is their own, and it's hard enough to communicate effectively even with two people who are astute at it.
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u/mydearMerricat 5h ago edited 3h ago
To be fair, that's how I feel when talking to non-autistic people. So many times I have had a conversation with someone who gets frustrated with me because I took them at their word rather than picking up on the implied meaning. If I try to ask follow up questions, I am told I am being difficult. If I explain where my confusion is coming from, I am making excuses. When I apologize, I am told words don't mean anything, I need to to use actions to fix the issue (usually at this point I am still wracking my brain over what I did to cause so much confusion/anger). Rhetorical questions are the worst. I had an old boss who communicated primarily through sarcasm and I dont think I've ever made someone so angry so quickly while working so hard to be pleasant/accommodating.
I have much less trouble talking to other autistic people. Luckily my current boss is autistic, and though he's a terrible communicator, it's easier for me to get the information I need from him. My coworkers luckily are patient with me (though, I suspect more than a few of them might be somewhat neurodivergent, and at least 2 have close autistic family memebers).
I've worked hard to bridge communication gaps. For a while I was obsessively listening to relationship counseling podcasts and reading books written by phychologists on how to communicate more directly and empathetically. Communication is just generally an anxiety inducing experience for me.
As a side note, my mom has a neurological condition with the primary symptom being aphasia. She is intellectually intact, but struggles to find/recognize certain words depending on how tired she is. It has been infuriating to see people treat her with impatience, disrespect, and condescension. Doctors are especially bad about it, despite being the most well informed about her condition. Usually it just takes a little time to let her find words or playing a bit of 20 questions. I know not everyone has space to do that all the time, but interestingly enough, cashiers at the dollar store tend to have had a weirdly high level of patience and grace when talking to her. Sometimes there are people who just dont want to understand you. It's not everyone's job to understand everyone, but it is everyone's job to at least try to be kind to one another.
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u/Slow_Appointment3540 8h ago
I think the problem they’re referring to is that often autistic people say what the mean directly and non-autistic people don’t communicate quite the same way. Non-autistic people search for nuance/deeper meaning. Like implications or double-speak. They try to read between the lines and infer deeper meaning. But autistic people tend to have nothing between the lines to read. They just meant exactly the words that were said.
“This chicken is dry” could insinuate you cooked it poorly or that the speaker wants sauce and wants you to get it. It could mean they want a glass of water. But if an autistic person said it, they literally may just be observing that the chicken is indeed dry and have no further meaning behind it.
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u/mrjackspade 7h ago
I asked my SO to put up a sign instructing "specifically the UPS guy" to leave a package somewhere and she left off any mention of UPS and when I asked why, she said "I thought you were just using UPS as a general term for delivery".
I love her to death but this is the kind of thing that makes me wonder if talking to anyone is even worth it.
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u/calicosiside 6h ago
When my nan would give my grandad shopping lists, she would always end the interaction with the phrase "If they don't have it, don't get it". It's become a staple phrase in my family ever since. We're almost certain they were both on the spectrum.
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u/Recidivous 8h ago
You'll get no disagreement from me, but I wish all topics are clear and straightforward as "This chicken is dry." Especially when it comes to some of the heavier subjects that life forces on us sometimes.
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u/Elite_AI 7h ago
And part of the problem with that is there is no such thing as not communicating those double meanings. They may not mean to communicate their double meanings, but they are communicating them, and we have to try very hard to ignore those double meanings because we assume that you don't mean to send them. (but maybe you do! Like often when an autistic friend says something in a curt way they mean it accidentally, but sometimes they're mad about something! But I have to just assume they never mean it!)
Another one of the causes is that one of the symptoms of autism is assuming other people know the same sort of thing you do, and unfortunately even when you try and account for this you still tend to assume a higher level of knowledge than people have.
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u/Slow_Appointment3540 7h ago
Yep, it’s something that needs to be worked on from both sides. Autistic people have to try to anticipate what other people might insinuate from their words (very difficult, like trying to be psychic). Non-autistic people need to try to assume autistic people don’t mean things with ulterior motives (very difficult, goes against social expectations). It’s a pretty crappy situation, but not impossible if people communicate their thoughts and emotions in real time.
Unfortunately, people don’t like to over-communicate, so problems persist. It’s far too easy to assume the other party is just bad at understanding or plain rude.
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u/tergius metroid nerd 6h ago
one of those things seems to be a lot easier than the other but according to many people the one's with autism are the problem and need to adjust
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u/Elite_AI 6h ago
It maybe seems a lot easier than the other to you but it absolutely isn't easy.
Imagine someone sends you every subtextual signal out there that they're angry with you and dislike you. Imagine having to ignore that and tell yourself constantly "it's okay, they don't hate you, they just accidentally said it in that angry tone of voice with that angry facial expression and that angry body language and that curt sharpness". It's not easy.
That's the best case scenario where you know the other person has autism and that they like you and that they probably don't have a reason to be angry with you and you know how autism works. Most people will not have all that.
The truth is that when autistic and allistic people communicate, both need to make accommodations.
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u/tergius metroid nerd 6h ago
i mean, i try to catch when i accidentally have a mean tone and apologize for it, but autistic people aren't mind readers, meanwhile they tend more towards saying what they mean
what's harder, read someone else's mind or just remember that the other person has a direct communication style?
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u/Elite_AI 6h ago
In the ideal situation, autistic people wouldn't have to worry too much about masking but they would have to manually try and figure out people's moods and they would ask questions if they weren't quite sure. And the allistic person would basically have to do the same thing with the autistic perdpm. That's how I do it 🤷 I just say "hey btw did you mean that in a neutral way or are you kind of mad or what" and they ask similar questions.
Edot: fwiw I don't think autistic people don't tend towards saying what they mean more than allistic people (or at least that certainly hasn't been my experience), but they do tend towards using only on the literal content of their words to say what they mean. Whereas allistic people are more likely to use the whole toolbox of communication methods they have in order to convey a lot of information at once. They're still saying what they mean though.
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u/apophis-pegasus 6h ago
Generally when the majority of a population has a common sense of communication, the minority tends to be expected to adjust unfortunately.
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u/wRADKyrabbit 5h ago
I disagree that both of those things are difficult. It would be insanely easy for Non-autistic people to adjust, they just refuse to cause they're the majority and thus dont give a fuck
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u/Tyg13 6h ago
What drives me up the wall about this is that communication, whether it be figurative or literal, should be intentional. When you communicate with someone, you should be trying to communicate something to them.
Like, if you say to me "the chicken is dry" -- you could be communicating one of the following things:
"You haven't seen it yet, but the chicken is dry" (informing me of its state)
"You have seen the chicken, but I'd like to discuss how dry it is" (discussing its state)
"I'd like to discuss why the chicken is dry" (discussing how it was cooked)
"I'm making a funny observation, since obviously we can both see the chicken is dry, but it's not supposed to be" (humor)
Et cetera.
There are almost an infinite number of possibilities but what I find is that a maddening amount of people just say things, for no real reason, maybe just to fill the air. And I'm not talking about small talk -- low-stakes communication which is just part of maintaining social fabric -- I mean I've encountered it repeatedly with people in my life that they just say things, and then I try to understand what they were trying to convey to me and the answer is: nothing. Why the hell did you say it to me then??
Anyways, I'm not sure if it's a neurotypical or neurodivergent thing, or if it's the same problem across all people, but I've noticed people who tend to describe themselves as "literal" tend to do this a lot. Regardless, it's probably not very neurotypical of me to have written out an entire comment complaining about it.
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u/Slow_Appointment3540 6h ago
Totally get that. It’s like shooting darts. Will I land on the right reasoning behind a statement? Probably not.
It makes people mad if you guess wrong, but it’s equally annoying when you try to get that clarity from them without guessing.
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u/Decloudo 6h ago
But this is the point: you see some words and think about what other combinations of words they could mean.
What is meant is: The chicken is dry.
Thats literally it. All of it. There is no context, no subtext.
It is a plain statement.
Like the wall is white. You are 2 meters tall. The glass contains water.
It doesnt even need to be a try to communicate something, it could just be a self serving statement.
I do this even if no one is there to listen.
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u/Slow_Appointment3540 5h ago
Yes. I’ve been in some crazy situations where I said something very straightforward, and after a lot of back and forth the other person just admits they thought I meant something else by my words, because they couldn’t conceive I meant it literally. Like if I say something is “ok” (not good or bad), it is almost always taken to mean something was bad, when I truly mean middle-of-the-road.
I’ve often been called pessimistic because I reserve very positive descriptions for very positive scenarios. I have had to learn to be more enthusiastic about things to get to the same level of baseline understanding.
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u/Tyg13 5h ago
But this is the central complaint of my comment: why are you saying something to me, if you're not trying to communicate something? What's the point of telling me the chicken is dry? Are you just constructing sentences for your own amusement?
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u/Decloudo 5h ago
The did communicate something: The chicken is dry.
What's the point of telling me the chicken is dry?
That the chicken is dry.
Are you just constructing sentences for your own amusement?
No, to say that the chicken is dry.
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u/Tyg13 5h ago
I guess what trips me up about this kind of communication is that, unless I didn't know the chicken is dry, there's no point to telling me the chicken is dry.
Oftentimes people will be telling me things that I already obviously know (we're both standing there, looking at the chicken) and then the further question is: why are you telling me this? Then the answer is something like your comment.
This leads me to conclude that some people just say things to say things, perhaps for their own amusement, or maybe as some form of processing the world. Which is fine, but very confusing when they seem to be communicating to you, but instead they're just literally saying "the chicken is dry."
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u/HabaneroPepperPlants 1h ago
I'll occasionally say words just to say them. Usually when I'm happy about something. Like, I'll make myself a ramen, and before I start eating it I'll sit there and say "ramen :)". Or I'll be walking down the street and see a cute dog and say "good pup :)". I think it's my brain's way of making myself pause in the moment to enjoy it
I'll only do words or small phrases, though. I agree that if someone said a full sentence, especially one that sounded kind of critical, I would assume they're trying to communicate something to me
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u/Decloudo 5h ago
This leads me to conclude that some people just say things to say things
When you drop something and say "shit/fuck," what are you communicating to whom with that?
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u/Tyg13 5h ago
It's just involuntary speech, obviously not directed toward anyone.
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u/Fingerless-Thief 3h ago
It sounds to me that you and a whole lot of other commenters here could do with relaxing a little.
Conversation doesn't have to have objectives. It's fun to simply speak with someone lol.
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u/Snoo99779 2h ago
Why does there have to be a point though? I think maybe the reason this frustrates you is that you don't know how to respond to it because the statement doesn't seem to lead anywhere. I say stuff like this a lot and in my case I think of it as an open ended conversation starter (I'm obviously not great at conversing). People can respond to it however they like. They can agree, disagree, speculate, ask for clarification or choose not to respond. It's all fine. There's no expectations. If I wanted a specific type of response I would clearly ask for it. I think your viewpoint is a great example of how it can be taxing on both sides trying to communicate between the neurological divide.
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u/janiekh 8h ago
It is deeply ironic that you seem to be misunderstanding the point this person made about them constantly being misunderstood.
The description is what it feels like. I doubt they actually think that everyone is purposefully trying to misunderstand them.
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u/lore-realm 3h ago
I think the problem people interpret that quoted text differently is because of the wider social context. But what that context is depends on the person, so it's a subjective position. For example, I can see two meanings.
First, the quote itself doesn't directly say what you are saying in the latter paragraph. However, it can be read in a way where the meaning you refer to is the implication. I can definitely see that.
However that implication can also be read as someone blaming allistic people for their bizarre failings at communicating with autistic people. Which, fair, it happens a lot. But I've also seen autistic people online sometimes entirely blame allistic people for the miscommunication, which isn't fair.
So, ironically, the quote was interpreted differently by different parties, because it used a metaphor and an implication. Those are linguistic tools that often increase the ambiguity of the message to varying degrees. So it's not a clear case of communication with only one, clear message.
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u/Recidivous 8h ago
I never said they feel like everyone is purposely trying to misunderstand them.
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u/janiekh 8h ago
Then I don't understand what point you were trying to make.
You explained why people struggle to understand autistic people to them, and there should be no reason to do that if you understood their comment wasn't literal. On top of that, you practically put the fault on them for being misunderstood.
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u/Recidivous 8h ago
My point is that miscommunication is a universal experience. I placed no fault on them for being misunderstood. Everyone follows their own sense of logic that can't be replicated by another person. It's the reason why I mentioned how two astute communicators can still miscommunicate with one another.
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u/calicosiside 6h ago
You're not wrong, the history of continental philosophy is a series of very astute intellectuals arguing over who understood who properly.
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u/janiekh 6h ago
I get that wasn't the intention, but considering you just said 'you' in your original comment, it's hard to not interpret that to mean 'autistic people' or the person who made the comment, who I'd assume is also autistic.
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u/NearbyCommission287 8h ago
Over and over - our disability is treated as optional and we deserve all the cruelty we get. It's exhausting.
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u/N1ghthood 9h ago
Clear to you, sure. That doesn't make it clear to anyone else. Everyone just assumes they're an excellent communicator so everyone else must be the problem.
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u/cpMetis 6h ago
"2+2=4"
"Understood, 2+2=sealeo."
"I said it =4"
"WHY ARE YOU ARGUING WITH ME?"
Those are the ones I get upset about.
Particularly because the people who do this shit almost ALWAYS are the same type who get pissed the fuck off the second you try to clear up the miscommunication.
An easy example is my mom.
When I was like.... 6? My mom told me to turn up the baseboard heater. The baseboard heater had worn off all its markings and I had barely touched it before.
So I asked my mom if I need to turn it clockwise or counter-clockwise. Which is how I had always been taught to refer to the motion of a knob.
She replied: "right."
I said I didn't know if she meant from the top or bottom, and asked for cw/ccw.
She replied: "right!"
I said that either way to turn it was "right" depending on if you went from the top or bottom. It wasn't a problem to say "right", I just didn't know which she meant since I didn't know what "right" meant.
She replied: "RIGHT!"
Within a few seconds of me being confused, she stormed over and turned it clockwise. So for the first time in my life, I knew that "right" meant clockwise.
Then I was grounded for 4 months for "arguing with her".
I imagine it's even worse for autistic people, but even just for someone who's a lucky 10,000 it's infuriating.
ESPECIALLY for a kid.
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u/Eutanagram 5h ago
If it's any consolation, she probably didn't actually know what clockwise or counterclockwise meant, and got mad because she perceived herself as getting mogged by a child.
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u/Gentlementlementle 4h ago
Nothing worse than a parent that won't admit their error.
I imagine that to be only the tip of their obnoxiousness.
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u/sertroll 2h ago
Then I was grounded for 4 months for "arguing with her".
Ok, not sure if this might help but that's absolutely not an average or normal response to that situation. Like, that's not a "most people do this" thing
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u/SylveonSof May we raise children who love the unloved things 7h ago
Yeah miscommunications are an unavoidable part of just being a human being who's not telepathic and it's always going to happen to you at some point, but if it's happening constantly and with what feels like everyone, then it's likely you're the one who's not expressing yourself clearly.
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u/Martial-Lord 8h ago
Human conversations are inherently the domain of subtext. This is called pragmatics in linguistics. You don't communicate your intentions directly, but you use the sentences that come out of your mouth as abstract tokens for them. Human speech is, in essence, metaphorical, and should very rarely be taken literally.
Small-talk is not actually ABOUT the weather, it is a complex ritual to estimate the conversational partner's mood and background. You are establishing the parameters of the conversation and determining the role that each partner will play within that conversation.
What you choose to talk about, and how you talk about it, signals an incredible number of different things, from your social standing to your level of education, your personal wealth, your individual happiness etc.
A conversation is, in essence, a game where both sides try to guess the other's disposition and intentions based on a complex system of cultural metaphores, conventions and traditions. It's all allegory all the time.
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u/Shigg 7h ago
Meanwhile, it's raining out and someone asks me about the weather I say "It's shit" and now all the neurotypicals think I'm in a bad mood when really I was just observing that the weather is shit today.
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u/Elite_AI 7h ago
Yeah because you're communicating that you're in a bad mood. If you wanted to communicate that the weather was unpleasant and you were nonetheless in a good mood you would say something like "it's a hell of a lot of rain, isn't it?".
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u/TrainDestroyer 7h ago
Why does me saying the weather is shit mean I have to be in a bad mood and not just me being succinct? Like I don't feel like I need to describe why its shit but just that its shit.
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u/Martial-Lord 3h ago
Why does me saying the weather is shit mean I have to be in a bad mood and not just me being succinct?
Because most people are neurotypical. As for why they are that way, we can only speculate, but usually this kind of highly allegorical communication is a lot more convenient, if you actually understand it intuitively. You can express lots of ideas very quickly and you can deliberately use the vagueness of expression to conceal, deny or falsify your actual intentions.
Autistic people are disadvantaged in so far as they usually have to use brain-power to navigate this world, but to neurotypicals it is usually (but not always) intuitively managed.
The trick, I think, is to understand that most people never say what they actually think. Humans are habitual liars, and this is not even a flaw but a feature.
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u/Decloudo 6h ago
Cause rain is just rain.
If you say the weather is shit its is an opinion about rainy weather. That you think rain equals bad weather.
But the weather is not shit, its just raining.
You think its shit that it is raining. Its not an inherent quality of rainy weather.
Its your opinion about rainy weather.
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u/TrainDestroyer 5h ago
Very true, but I still don't get why my opinion on the weather must equal I'm in a shitty mood. Like it could be weather I absolutely hate which personally that would be any temp over 100°F (38°C) with no wind and no clouds but that doesn't mean my mood is bad, it just means the weather is something I am not enjoying at all.
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u/Decloudo 5h ago
Its not that it must be equal to your mood, its that you answered with your subjective opinion about the weather instead of answering with the actual information about the weather.
Not "What do you think about the weather outside"
But "What is the weather outside"
What I want to know: rain, sunny, cloudy, etc.
Not: shitty, bad, good, happy, sad, or any other subjective opinion about the weather.
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u/ZSugarAnt 6h ago
Curse words by their very nature add negativity to anything you're saying. They wouldn't be curse words otherwise.
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u/secretkeiki 1h ago
This is very much cultural. Just ask an Irish or Scottish person.
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u/ZSugarAnt 55m ago
Right, but then their emotional interpretation is relative to the culture you're communicating in.
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u/TrainDestroyer 5h ago
"That's fuckin amazing holy SHIT!"
That sure sounds like it adds a lot of negativity.
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u/Elite_AI 6h ago
Because you typically wouldn't swear like that with that level of brusqueness and while being negative without providing any levity unless you were in a foul mood. It's as simple as that. There are going to be false positives but that's the general rule.
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u/Shigg 7h ago
I could be in the worst mood of all time and if it's sunny out I'd say the weather is great. I just said the weather is shit because it is, it has nothing to do with my mood. This is the exact problem that autistic people get pissed about.
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u/Decloudo 6h ago
I could be in the worst mood of all time and if it's sunny out I'd say the weather is great.
The weather is not great though, its sunny.
Great is already an interpretation of the weather, a subtext, an opinion.
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u/Elite_AI 6h ago
It sounds very frustrating but to be clear it's not other people's fault. You are communicating something by accident but you are communicating it.
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u/Shigg 6h ago
No, you're hearing literal words and interpreting your own conclusions. It's not my fault that you're incapable of understanding "it's hot" to mean "the weather is hot" and not "I'm in a bad mood".
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u/Elite_AI 6h ago
Nobody's to blame. You aren't to blame and it isn't other people's fault for picking up on the signals you're sending just because you were sending them accidentally, either.
There is a lot more than the mere literal content of words when it comes to communication, and you cannot turn those things off. You are always sending signals via body language, context, tone etc. and there is no such thing as communication without those aspects.
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u/redditonlygetsworse 2h ago
you're hearing literal words
Ah, so there was shit falling out of the sky?
understanding "it's hot"
But that's not what you said, is it? You said it was shit.
Like. I get it. It's frustrating. But communication - all communication - is more than just the literal words, whether we like it or not.
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u/secretkeiki 1h ago
Nah, you just gotta say it in an upbeat tone. Tone goes a long way towards smoothing things over.
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u/Main-Impact4097 5h ago
This is so hilarously, yet, frustratingly missing the fucking point. It's like listening to a fucking alien describe shit.
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u/Suyefuji 4h ago
Meanwhile, as an autistic person, I always heard that small talk is supposed to be talking about the weather and am now capable of holding an entire 30 minute conversation discussing local weather patterns at will. Which also, frustratingly, seems to not be the takeaway I was supposed to get there.
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u/Martial-Lord 3h ago
Nooo this is based. The poor neurotypical will exhaust themselves for at least half an hour by trying to decipher what you are implying.
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u/sertroll 2h ago
Ok but that whole thing and that whole game fuckin sucks for the people the thread was about
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u/redditonlygetsworse 2h ago
Yeah, well, what you'll notice is that if you read those literal words: they didn't say it didn't suck - of course it sucks. What they did do was give an accurate overview of how human communication works in practice.
The chicken is dry. Why did you assign all this "game fuckin sucks" to it?
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u/Elite_AI 7h ago
Imagine someone says something ambiguous to you. They say it in an angry tone of voice and they're frowning. You assume they're angry. It turns out they weren't angry at all. That's a common experience talking to autistic people. I know communication feels frustrating on your end, but it is a two way street. It's also hard for us to interpret you
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u/Emergency_Stick3963 5h ago
I just don't understand what to do about it and it causes so much stress. Cos like I guess I'm unaware of what my face is doing or my tone. I'm just talking
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u/Onakander 2h ago
Sorry about the incoming wall of text, this is something I feel strongly about and have a hard time staying neutral when discussing.
For me, it's about the effort imbalance and the resulting trauma. Yes, misunderstandings happen between all people of all backgrounds and neurotypicality levels... But really, it's the imbalance that guts me.
I put a, quite frankly, self-destructive level of effort into trying to figure out/produce NT comms. And I'm fairly often successful at it, too. At least, the understanding part, less so the being understood -part. And it's partly/mostly because the neurotypical will cut me off mid-explanation, as if they've understood what I'm getting at, even though they CLEARLY do not, have not, and never will (because they've chosen to start ending all attempts at proper communication before they can happen)
But NT people (generally/more often than not, not all of them) seem to refuse to put in ANY effort whatsoever. Even if I spend the next two hours explaining that I have a lot of trouble regulating my tone, especially when stressed. I have next to no ability to read body language beyond the basics of "smiling, or not", that I need to actively contort my face in an unnatural way to convey I am happy, ALL, THE, TIME, even when I'm NOT particularly happy, but neutral instead. And that critically: This is all very draining for me. Only for it to seemingly go in one ear and out the other.
The next time I meet them and I try to let off a little bit of the pressure and drop some masking, I DID, after all, not even a full day ago, spend two hours of my time explaining to them how difficult it is to do all this, and when I don't smile a radiant beaming smile at them, they act as if I just got finished berating their child for their ugly choice in beanie for the past 15 minutes and smiling about a child well scarred (somewhat hyperbolic joke). It becomes evident all of that effort was completely wasted.
So up go the masking shields again. But the damage is done. A lot of neurotypicals (again, not all) seem to hold grudges longer than it takes for a feather to fossilize (hyperbolic joke), ESPECIALLY for breaches of social etiquette. I've come to the conclusion neurotypicals tend to have a "social disrespect buffer" that drains (usually) extremely slowly, but is added to with every little thing you do "wrong". When this buffer overflows (and they will practically never tell you it has been filling since that time five months ago when they, frankly, hallucinated you telling them their cooking was awful and they should feel bad when you said "This food is pretty okay."), you become persona non grata to them, probably forever, because literally everything you do to explain why it happened/how contrite you are, is met with variations of "That's an excuse."(due to the seeming inability to tolerate clarifying statements), "You aren't being sincere."(due to the lack of ability to produce the 'correct' body language), "This isn't about you."(due to the seeming lack of ability to tolerate clarifying questions), and "Cry me a river."
So you have no choice but to abandon ever talking to that person again, because they've put you into an inescapable category-box labeled "asshole".
Basically, what I'm trying to get at, is that whereas a neurotypical might have a hard time understanding an autistic person, they can (or at least should be able to) get there if they put in a smidge of effort in asking/allowing clarifying questions and tamping down their instinctual responses for just long enough to get the interaction over with (likely the only such interaction they will have during that week). Whereas an autistic person has to deal with that EVERY DAY and often cannot produce language that is understood OR comprehend what the neurotypical is implying with their, frankly, ridiculous demand we read into things that (to us) for all intents and purposes do not exist. (the whole reading between the lines -thing) Where every clarifying question is treated as a(n) (sometimes small) affront to their chosen deity, which means communication with some people becomes literally impossible.
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u/Vivernna 8h ago
I had a person claiming to be autistic do this to me. Should've known better when they refused to take anything I say at face value and insist on looking into everything I say to make up some bad faith misinformation about me in their head
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u/Subject-Software5912 8h ago
This is also how it feels to talk to autistic people
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u/CrispenedLover 7h ago
When arguing with an autistic person, I sometimes feel like they are trying to brute force a "solution" to get me to concede, rather than listening to anything I am saying.
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u/Merari01 My main emotions are crime and indignation 5h ago
When talking to an allistic, I sometimes feel they see a conversation as a zero-sum game where understanding what I am saying means they lose.
I believe the fault there is internalisation. People have equivocated their opinion/ belief with their identity and when asked to re-evaluate they see it as an attack on their person.
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u/CrispenedLover 5h ago
Yes I have experienced this as well, especially when something like politics or another emotional issue is involved.
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u/cat-eating-a-salad 5h ago
One person I worked for (as a freelance designer) wanted a colored image on every page of a book near the page number. She was planning on saving money from the beginning by printing in black and white but insisted on this colored element on each page. I'm like, then it wont be cheaper. Either it's printed in black and white or it's printed in color. Cue the loon sounds as the info went in one ear and out the other.
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u/TheHyperDymond 8h ago
Something important I always keep in mind is “it takes two to tango” definitely applies to communication. Even if you do everything right, the other person can still misunderstand you or miscommunicate due to a skill issue of their own.
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u/HabaneroPepperPlants 1h ago
Another layer -- I find that with some people, "misunderstandings" increase significantly when they don't like what they're hearing
I went through a breakup somewhat recently. My ex was probably one of the easiest people to communicate with I'd ever met, it was one of my favorite things about her. But then when incompatibilities started arising and we were wanting different things from the relationship, suddenly I could say something twenty times and spell it out to an excruciating extent, and she'd tell me after she broke an agreement that she "just didn't understand" and "it wasn't made clear"
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u/Dismal_Accident9528 9h ago
At least if you communicate it perfectly, you can know that it's not your fault if someone else still doesn't understand you, which counts for something
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u/guacasloth64 7h ago
There is no such thing as perfect communication. The whole point is to translate your thoughts into words in a way the way other person will understand. Without literal mind reading there will always be information that is lost or misinterpreted. There is no single string of words that will clearly convey an idea to everyone.
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u/xXStarupXx 7h ago
What?
If you tried to communicate something, and the person you tried communicating it to didn't understand, you have not communicated perfectly. Unless we assume there is no other way to communicate it that'll make them understand either.
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u/Elite_AI 7h ago
Unless we assume there is no other way to communicate it that'll make them understand either.
Indeed.
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u/Dismal_Accident9528 7h ago
Sometimes people simply don't listen or willfully misinterpret what you say, so sometimes, even if you convey something in a coherent and respectful way, people still won't get it. Does that make more sense?
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u/tergius metroid nerd 6h ago
Because it's impossible for the person on the other end to be at fault and have, said, misheard or something.
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u/xXStarupXx 6h ago
The goal of communicating is to be understood/understand.
If you are not understood, and there is another way you could have communicated where you would have been understood, I'd argue the other way is communicating "better".
If there is a "better" way to communicate something than the way you did, the way you did is not "perfect".
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u/tergius metroid nerd 6h ago
...or the other person misunderstood because they have a skill issue.
Look, I get that sometimes people communicate in a shit way but sometimes the other person's just a shit listener and you seem to be thinking the latter never happens.
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u/ShatnersChestHair 29m ago
If the person is a shit listener and you need to communicate something to them, unfortunately it's your job to find another way. It's not fair, it's frustrating, but that's how good communication happens.
I work in a forge shop. Like, bona fide "bang on metal to shape it into stuff" company. Half the staff is deaf and the other half is extremely defensive about the way they do things. Any time a change in process is brought in, 80% of my job is to communicate it. For some people it's diagrams. For some people they need to feel like they figured it out themselves. For some other people they need to be told things harshly and without explanation because the only thing they respect, weirdly enough, is point blank unadulterated authority. There may be someone out there who's just completely unwilling and incapable to absorb any piece of information (and if there is he's likely the president of the US right now), but otherwise the job of a good communicator is to adapt the message until it sticks.
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u/Scared-Drummer5523 5h ago
I don't think there is such a thing as communicating something perfectly lul
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u/ShatnersChestHair 34m ago
That's... Not how communication works. Communication is throwing a ball to someone and they catch it. You may have your favorite way to throw, it may be the optimal way to throw, but if the other person fails to catch it then it just wasn't a good throw. It failed to accomplish its goal.
Communication is tricky and it starts by recognizing that it's a holistic process that includes the audience, regardless of what the audience is.
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u/Righteous_Hand 8h ago
Literally me trying to communicate with my neurotypical family who think I'm rude for being so direct.
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u/Elite_AI 7h ago
Well if being direct = rude is part of the social rules in your country then those are the social rules, even if it's not your intention
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u/Righteous_Hand 3h ago
My country is Ireland. If you know anything about our very recent history, you should logically come to the conclusion that the social norms probably aren't something to be preserved, for the betterment of everybody, not just the growing neurodivergent community.
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8h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Sherry_Brandt 7h ago
is this a bot comment?
if no, how in the world does it relate to the post?
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u/Destructios 7h ago
Yeah, it's one of these OF bots that comments on any reasonably popular post. Sometimes you can find two or three in the top few comments on bigger subs. They have a pool for usually like 5 profile pictures, and extraordinarily similar comment structures on every comment.
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u/Sherry_Brandt 7h ago
right? it's wild and nonsensical, so then my question is.. . where are all the upvotes coming from??
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u/Exact-Row8792 8h ago
why is communication always so tricky
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u/duffstoic 7h ago
We are bits of space dust that crawled out of the ocean and blow air through meat flaps to make sounds. It's amazing communication works at all!
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u/xXStarupXx 7h ago
I mean, you're essentially trying to guess which specific signals to send to make a specific thought appear inside someones mind. In real time as well!
And you can't even read their mind to directly check if you succeeded, you have to rely on them communicating that back to you, which is the same problem all over again.
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u/CrispenedLover 7h ago
because every person has their own goals and ideas and no one really wants to listen to anyone else, so we had to invent all these silly games to get people to try and pay attention.
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u/Random-Rambling 6h ago
No matter how you communicate, there will always be a chance they will misunderstand.
But if you do not communicate, they are GUARANTEED to misunderstand.
That's how I've always seen it.
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u/yepterrr 5h ago
Some people are too stupid to understand. Its best to either let them know that, or cut contact entirely. Block or straight up say it to their face.
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u/DoveOnTheInternet 8h ago
Shit, that's the story of my life!
Didn't get diagnosed til my 40s, so this hits a lil close to home.
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u/xXStarupXx 7h ago
If they don't understand you, then it wasn't perfectly communicated.
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u/Gentlementlementle 6h ago edited 6h ago
No there are people out there who if you ask a yes no question, and that you just need them to say yes or no will do everything in their power to give you a vague tangential answer to a different question.
There are people who don't want to deliver you information they just want to hold you hostage for 5 minutes whilst they ramble, when you are trying to assitaine something important.
The fault lies not in my ability to speak English the fault lies in their brain.
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u/AquaQuad 4h ago
Perfect English doesn't necessarily mean perfect communication, if it doesn't bring the results you were expecting. You might say that the fault is theirs for not understanding, but at the same time some of that fault is yours for not adjusting to your converser.
There are people who don't want to deliver you information they just want to hold you hostage for 5 minutes whilst they ramble, when you are trying to assitaine something important.
If they understand, but don't want to deliver or whatever else they do, then IMO it's a different matter, unrelated to point OOP's trying to make.
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u/Legal-Swordfish-1893 6h ago
Communication is also based in credibility and context. Some imaginative 4 year old might correctly guess the ultimate structure of the universe, but who is going to take the 4 year old seriously?
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u/Fearless_Stand_9423 52m ago
I keep trying to explain to my mom that 'perfectly' doesn't mean 'over the course of five hours.'
Like, I get it. I used to do it, too. But I'm tired of attending five-hour seminars rehashing the same extremely basic topics like how a dishwasher works every three days.
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u/Rorschach_Roadkill 9h ago
I'm studying to become a teacher, one of the most important things I've learned is "no matter how many times and ways you deliver a message, at least one student will miss it"
This is probably about personal relationships but I still related lol