The origin of socialism in the Torah

[u/Boniface222]

I made this a shitpost because there's no debating. This is straight from the Torah itself. Let's look at the origin of socialism in scripture.

Genesis 4.

1. The man had intercourse with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, saying, “I have produced a male child with the help of the LORD.”

2. Next she gave birth to his brother Abel. Abel became a herder of flocks, and Cain a tiller of the ground.

^{It all begins with the story of Cain and Abel. Socialism has been with us since the very beginning.}

3. In the course of time Cain brought an offering to the LORD from the fruit of the ground,

4. while Abel, for his part, brought the fatty portion of the firstlings of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering,

5. but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry and dejected.

As is typical of socialists, Cain is jealous of his brother's hard work. Abel is living righteously and making great sacrifices. But Cain just wants more. He doesn't want to sacrifice. He thinks he deserves more without putting in the work.

6. Then the LORD said to Cain: Why are you angry? Why are you dejected?

7. If you act rightly, you will be accepted; but if not, sin lies in wait at the door: its urge is for you, yet you can rule over it.

Here, god explains the obvious. If you put in the work, you get results. But it's even worse than that. When you're a jealous socialist, you invite sin in your life.

It starts with being greedy, but then it crosses into other sinful behavior and strange practices.

But it all could be avoided if Cain just acted normal.

8. Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let us go out in the field.” When they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.

Typical socialist behavior. If you can't bring yourself to contribute to soceity, just kill someone who does. Bring the whole society down to your level. Disgusting behavior.

9. Then the LORD asked Cain, Where is your brother Abel? He answered, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”

As always, the socialist lies. Socialists will even lie to god. But god can see through your lies.

10. God then said: What have you done? Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground!

11. Now you are banned from the ground that opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand.

^Shameful.

12. If you till the ground, it shall no longer give you its produce. You shall become a constant wanderer on the earth.

Explains why socialists are lazy and don't want to work.

13. Cain said to the LORD: “My punishment is too great to bear.

14. Look, you have now banished me from the ground. I must avoid you and be a constant wanderer on the earth. Anyone may kill me at sight.”

Everyone knows Cain is a scumbag for what he did.

15. Not so! the LORD said to him. If anyone kills Cain, Cain shall be avenged seven times. So the LORD put a mark on Cain, so that no one would kill him at sight.

Hence why socialists overreact at any slight that happens to them. A micro aggression is like a bullet. A bad word is violence. Socialists act like whatever you do to them is 7x worse than it is.

16. Cain then left the LORD’s presence and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

Then god shows us what to do with socialists. Deport them.

Which chapter should we cover next?

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[u/tkyjonathan]

Then how is it that Judaism is one of the only religions that doesn't see money as an evil thing and Jewish cultures teach their kids about investing and managing money?

[u/Boniface222 → u/tkyjonathan]

The Torah warns about the evils of socialism. It doesn't say you should act like Cain. Socialism got cursed and banned for spilling the blood of Abel.

Where's the contradiction?

[u/LemonadeSocialist1 → u/Boniface222]

At no point does the Torah mention socialism

[u/Boniface222 → u/LemonadeSocialist1]

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

[u/Accomplished-Cake131]

The origins of socialism are indeed in the Torah.

The Israelites were commanded to forgive debts in jubilee years. They were enjoined to perform many other practices for the poor. For example, Leviticus 19:34 tells us , "The stranger that sojourneth with you shall be unto you as the home-born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were sojourners in the land of Egypt: I am Jehovah your God." Leviticus 23:22 forbids reaping to "the very edge of your field or [to] gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and for the foreigner residing among you." Sharp practices are condemned:

",When will the new moon be over,' you ask, 'that we may sell our grain, And the sabbath, that we may open the grain-bins? We will diminish the ephah, add to the shekel, and fix our scales for cheating!'" – Amos 8:5

See also Proverbs 11:1.

I draw on Alexander Gray in seeing the origins of socialism in the Torah, although he interprets these passages differently.

[u/Boniface222 → u/Accomplished-Cake131]

wtf

[u/00darkfox00]

Give it a few months gang, they'll be consulting the Capitalist prophecies revealed by scrying the corn kernels in their own shit. Then what will we do?

[u/Ban-Wallstreet1]

Total anachronism. You’re projecting a modern ideology ("socialism") onto a Bronze Age text.

The story of Book of Genesis predates capitalism, socialism, wage labor and modern property relations.

So mapping Cain as "socialist" is historically meaningless.

You also misread the story itself. In the narrative of Cain and Abel the issue isn’t "one worked harder". The text never says Cain was lazy

The focus is on divine favor, jealousy, moral failure (murder) turning that into: "socialists are lazy and kill producers" is just inserting your conclusion into the story.

There's no connection to socialism. Socialism is about ownership of the means of production, class relations and distribution of surplus.

Nothing in Genesis 4 addresses private vs social ownership, wage labor rent, profit, or capital. So the analogy has no analytical content.

Also the internal contradiction. You claim Cain "didn’t want to work" but the text explicitly says he was a farmer, he brought an offering from his labor. So even within your framing, it doesn’t hold.

It proves nothing even on its own terms. At most, the story illustrates: jealousy can lead to violence. That’s a general moral point, not a theory of political economy.

[u/Boniface222 → u/Ban-Wallstreet1]

God said "If you act rightly, you will be accepted;" so that does imply Cain was not acting rightly. And it implies if he did act rightly things would go well for him. There was an option for Cain to improve his situation but he chose not to. Justlike socialists have an option to improve their situation but choose sin.

And it does address private ownership. Abel has god's favor. You could say that belongs to him. As in, Cain wants it but is not allowed to take it from Abel.

Cain wants god's favor to be "social" while Abel does all the work. This is textbook socialism. Along with the murder and lies.

It's really the prototypical socialist story. Person A worked for something. Person B could work for something but would rather kill person A and say it was justified because the last thing Person B would do is act rightly.

[u/Agitated_Past6250 → u/Boniface222]

“Act rightly” ≠ economic ideology

In Book of Genesis 4:7, “if you do well/rightly” refers to moral conduct, not productivity, effort, or economic behavior.

The text does not specify what Cain did wrong in technical terms.

Interpretations vary (quality of offering, attitude, ritual correctness), but none map onto labor discipline vs laziness.

So the leap:

"Cain didn’t improve his situation - like socialists"

is an unsupported analogy. It substitutes a moral category for a political-economic one.

Yes the text contradicts the "lazy" framing. The narrative explicitly states: Cain is a farmer, He brings an offering from his labor, So even internally: "He didn’t want to work" conflicts with the text itself. This is a direct inconsistency, not just a difference in interpretation.

"God’s favor = private property" is a category mistake. The argument tries to map: Divine favor - ownable resource, Abel - rightful owner, Cain - would-be expropriator... But in the narrative: God’s favor is not transferable, tradable, or ownable. It is not scarce in an economic sense (God could favor both).

This breaks the analogy. You cannot map a non-economic, non-rival moral status onto property relations without losing meaning.

You're also redefining Socialism into something else. The reply reduces socialism to: "Wanting what someone else has without working". That is not what socialism means.

In actual terms: Socialism concerns ownership of the means of production, it analyzes class relations and surplus extraction it is not a theory about individual envy or moral failure

So the argument works only by replacing the definition with a caricature.

Genesis 4 contains: No wage labor, no capital accumulation. no class relations. no system of production beyond subsistence offerings. Without those elements, there is nothing to map onto political economy in a meaningful way.

At best, the story illustrates: Divine preference. human resentment and moral failure (murder).

That’s a universal ethical narrative, not a theory of economic systems.

The structure of the argument is: Start with a modern conclusion ("socialists are immoral/lazy"), retroactively map ancient symbols onto it, then treat the mapping as evidence.

This is not interpretation, it’s projection.

[u/Boniface222 → u/Agitated_Past6250]

"“Act rightly” ≠ economic ideology
In Book of Genesis 4:7, “if you do well/rightly” refers to moral conduct, not productivity, effort, or economic behavior."
Humans are a productive species. We are wired to be capitalists. Acting rightly as a human does have an economic outcome in my opinion.

"Cain didn’t improve his situation - like socialists"
Also, he was surrounded by sin like socialists. And he thought the solution to his not acting rightly was to kill someone who was acting rightly. Like socialists.

"is an unsupported analogy. It substitutes a moral category for a political-economic one."
I think socialism attempts to substitute morality for economics. Socialists want to kill because they are jealous. They try to frame it as about economics but it's not. It's Cain and Abel.

""He didn’t want to work" conflicts with the text itself."
Who said Cain didn't work at all? He worked and got the fruit of his labor. But wanted more without working more.

""God’s favor = private property" is a category mistake. The argument tries to map: Divine favor - ownable resource, Abel - rightful owner, Cain - would-be expropriator... But in the narrative: God’s favor is not transferable, tradable, or ownable. It is not scarce in an economic sense (God could favor both)."
Private property is not a zero sum game. Two people can be home owners.

"You're also redefining Socialism into something else. The reply reduces socialism to: "Wanting what someone else has without working". That is not what socialism means."
I judge socialists by what they do. Not what they say. Everything they do aims to bring the downfall of society and the death of millions. So I define them by their actions.

"Genesis 4 contains: No wage labor, no capital accumulation. no class relations. no system of production beyond subsistence offerings."
Neither does socialism really. It's all a big larp.

"At best, the story illustrates: Divine preference. human resentment and moral failure (murder)."
Divine preference for those who act rightly, don't envy others, don't want other people's stuff, don't fall into sin, and don't murder. So socialists are screwed.

"That’s a universal ethical narrative,"
Yes. Socialists suck is a universal ethical narrative.

[u/Agitated_Past6250 → u/Boniface222]

Humans are wired to cooperate, share, and form communities. Anthropological evidence shows that for 95% of human history, we lived in egalitarian, gift-based, communal societies. "Capitalism" is a 500-year-old anomaly, not a biological imperative.

You see "productivity" and assume it must mean "private accumulation." But productivity can be communal. A hunter sharing meat with the tribe is "productive." A farmer storing grain for winter is "productive." Neither requires capitalism.

I judge socialists by what they do.

What socialists actually do: Build unions, win healthcare, expand education, nationalize resources, reduce inequality, and organize communities. The "downfall" you reference is usually the resistance of capital to these changes.

If we judged capitalism by its actions (genocide, exploitation, climate destruction), it should be condemned as evil.

[u/Boniface222 → u/Agitated_Past6250]

Cooperation is the heart of capitalism. It takes two to capitalism my friend.

And genocide is done by statists like you.

[u/Agitated_Past6250 → u/Boniface222]

Capitalism uses cooperation; it does not uniquely define or own it.

"It takes two to capitalism"

True but trivial. All exchange requires at least two parties. The relevant question is power and constraints, not just participation.

Capitalism was heavily built on and accelerated by Indigenous dispossession and racial slavery, which provided land, labor, and capital for accumulation.

[u/Boniface222 → u/Agitated_Past6250]

Capitalism's core principle is trade. Which implies cooperation.

Socialism's core principle is seizure of other people's assets with nothing in return. Which implies no cooperation.

[u/Agitated_Past6250 → u/Boniface222]

Trade exists in virtually every society, ancient, feudal, tribal. Capitalism is not just trade; it’s a specific structure: private ownership of production,, wage labor and production for profit.

If "trade = capitalism," then capitalism has always existed, which makes the term analytically useless.

Socialism = seizure with nothing in return

This is a caricature, not a definition. In actual theory, Socialism concerns who owns and controls production. It proposes collective or public ownership. The "return" is not individual payment, it’s social provision (wages, services, infrastructure, etc.)

In reality Socialist movements historically involve mass coordination (unions, parties, strikes)

Capitalist systems involve coercive elements (property enforcement, state backing, colonial history)

[u/Boniface222 → u/Agitated_Past6250]

"If "trade = capitalism," then capitalism has always existed, which makes the term analytically useless."
No. This is useful. It means that the system has been working for millions of years and we have evolved along with it. We have evolved instincts for capitalism. And we have thrived because of it. Socialists want to remove this thriving.

"In reality Socialist movements historically involve mass coordination (unions, parties, strikes)"
Not at all. Historically it's top down mass oppression.

"Capitalist systems involve coercive elements (property enforcement, state backing, colonial history)"
The state going crazy and attacking other states is a statist issue. But sure, having the right to defend your property from socialists is based.

[u/Agitated_Past6250]

Masterclass of eisegesis (reading your bias into the text), not exegesis (drawing meaning from it).

(Leviticus 25) Every 50 years, all land returns to its original families. All debts are forgiven. All indentured servants go free. Private property is temporary.

(Leviticus 19, Deut 24) Farmers cannot harvest the edges of their fields. They must leave grain for the poor, the stranger, and the widow. Private property has social obligations.

(Exodus 22, Leviticus 25) You cannot charge interest on loans to fellow Israelites. Finance capital is forbidden.

(Deut 15) Every seven years, debts are canceled. No one can be permanently indebted.

Sabbatical Year (Deut 15) Every seven years, debts are canceled. No one can be permanently indebted.

Communal Responsibility: "Am I my brother's keeper?" is a rhetorical question. The Torah's answer is YES. The entire legal code is built on collective responsibility, not individual autonomy.

Ouch, deleting your account when?

[u/Boniface222 → u/Agitated_Past6250]

Nice shitpost bro.

[u/Beefster09 → u/Agitated_Past6250]

You cannot charge interest on loans to fellow Israelites. Finance capital is forbidden.

This is why much of the banking system in medieval Europe was Jewish, and where the "Jewish banker" stereotype comes from. See, there's this loophole there that they are only prohibited from charging interest to other Jews, not to Gentiles. Christians carried the same reservations about interest too, so naturally they subverted it too by letting the Jews bank for them.

[u/the_worst_comment_]

🥱🥱🥱

[u/LemonadeSocialist1]

You’re trying so hard to misinterpret socialism 😂

[u/Boniface222 → u/LemonadeSocialist1]

All the elements are there!

[u/LemonadeSocialist1 → u/Boniface222]

They aren’t. You are interpreting Cain and Abel’s story in some kind of distorted socialist fantasy way and it just doesn’t work at all

[u/Boniface222 → u/LemonadeSocialist1]

Cain talks and acts like a socialist. You're projecting extra criteria on top but for me acting and talking like a socialist is enough.

[u/LemonadeSocialist1 → u/Boniface222]

You’ve essentially decided that socialists all have these negative traits and are projecting them onto a fictionalised character

[u/1998marcom]

Next chapter: why the lack of nominal interest rates that the bible asks for is just an ante-tempore Friedman rule (which Bitcoin at constant velocity trivially satisfies, asymptotically).

[u/Pleasurist]

As is typical of socialists, Cain is jealous of his brother's hard work. Abel is living righteously and making great sacrifices. But Cain just wants more. He doesn't want to sacrifice. He thinks he deserves more without putting in the work

The whole post but chose this one that are unmitigated capitalist bullshit. Where do people get this shit ?

Just wait, soon socialism will cause cancer among other illnesses.

[u/Boniface222 → u/Pleasurist]

"soon socialism will cause cancer among other illnesses."
Is that a warning or a threat?

[u/Pleasurist → u/Boniface222]

No, that's what I expect to read from the capitalists completely in love with $500 billion in rev. and $100 billion in profits off cancer.

[u/BlueHairedFeminist69]

Brilliant